Satan, Inc (TOL's heretic's list)
- Thread starter Choleric
- Start date
oly: and we really haven't seen ANYTHING like that since.
Choleric
New member
Sadly, that is the very gospel that you seem to be so eager to reject. Christ died in your place. God did that, not humans. We know because God put it into a book that has been verified as true based on the verified prophecy in Scripture and is God's revealed word on which you will be judged. You refusal to "obey the gospel" by placing your faith in Christ's substitution on your behalf will damn you for eternity.
"professing themselves to be wise, they became fools".
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
More false assumptions......
More false assumptions......
You're deluded and still making assumptions about my religious affiliation or context of religious studies. You also fail to comprehend that I use the UB merely as a springboard for discussion with conservative traditional-orthodox Christians, to inspire creative-dialogue and continual research of one's belief system. You're a bit clueless about my engagement here on the board since 2003.
All you have is a caricature that your attacking and the polemics that go with a typical fundamentalist who tries to define and pigeonhole another, but you can't do that with me, beginning with ignorance and false assumptions. My previous threads and some other involvement are listed here for historical record, but still is not a complete composite of my contributions to various religious subjects. Also note that the UB is only one subject among many that I've contributed discussion on. You falsely assume I'm an active UB-only enthusiast, just because of recent discussion on it. It only serves as a mirror to reflect back your own religious bias towards your own preferred texts which ought to be weighed with equal skepticism and credulity, which I formerly noted with Jehovah commanding genocide and other harmful activities.
More false assumptions......
You're deluded and still making assumptions about my religious affiliation or context of religious studies. You also fail to comprehend that I use the UB merely as a springboard for discussion with conservative traditional-orthodox Christians, to inspire creative-dialogue and continual research of one's belief system. You're a bit clueless about my engagement here on the board since 2003.
All you have is a caricature that your attacking and the polemics that go with a typical fundamentalist who tries to define and pigeonhole another, but you can't do that with me, beginning with ignorance and false assumptions. My previous threads and some other involvement are listed here for historical record, but still is not a complete composite of my contributions to various religious subjects. Also note that the UB is only one subject among many that I've contributed discussion on. You falsely assume I'm an active UB-only enthusiast, just because of recent discussion on it. It only serves as a mirror to reflect back your own religious bias towards your own preferred texts which ought to be weighed with equal skepticism and credulity, which I formerly noted with Jehovah commanding genocide and other harmful activities.
Sadly, the gospel you present was an after thought overlaid on top of the original gospel of salvation by faith. Paul had never known Jesus, he was a Jew influenced by the Pagan world where he was a citizen. He interpreted the cross (which became the central focus of his gospel) according to preconceived ideas.
I obey Jesus and his Father, not Paul and his speculations.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
Choleric
New member
:doh: Why is it then that the apostles that did "know" Jesus didn't dispute Paul? Why did Peter refer to him as brother?
By denying salvation by grace through faith according to Paul, you are denying God's revelation of the purpose of His Son. You are elevating your own surmising and opinion to a place above the authority of the word of God. You cannot be saved without the cross and your faith in the One who died there.
Lon
Well-known member
Nope. It isn't a lack of understanding. In fact, it is a very informed opinion of you, whether you particularly like it or not. You are that weirdo New-Age Borg. The UB happens to be the same tepid blaise do nothing theology of all the other ones you also embrace.
Let me make it clear: I don't believe you understand that your own personality and desires have you as a picky shopper only catering theology to your own self-indulgence. That's how I see you and there is nothing you can do presently to change that perception. I'm a fairly intelligent guy and did not spin my impression of you on a dime. Not much you can do will.
Good and legitimate question. There was some falling out between the apostles and this Charismatic Paul, but he was also influenced by Peters post cross thinking.
In the excitement of the miraculous self resurrection of Christ, and the presumption that he would soon return to take up David's seat, Peter launched out on this same presumption. The original gospel was forgotten in the dust of the new "good news", the risen Christ.
If the Jews had accepted the original gospel, they would be preaching that today from Jerusalem. So killing Jesus as a sacrifice wouldn't be that gospel. He would have simply desolved his body and returned to his place on high.
But knowing they would reject their calling, when questioned about his authority to teach Jesus took the opportunity of his voluntary submission to death to prove his authority. Basically he said kill my body and I will resurrect myself. He did.
Choleric
New member
What is interesting is that you clearly see some truths in scripture and you are onto something. You see, there is another gospel that was preached in the "gospels". That gospel is different from Paul's (and peters and the other apostles post-cross). And you are partially correct about what would have happened if the Jews had accepted Christ, as that kingdom would have been set up. That is why Christ was "standing" during the death of Stephen.Had the Jews repented then and there of killing their Messiah, He would have come down and set up His earthly kingdom.
But two things. First, Christ was slain "before the foundation of the world". That is way before the New Testament writers. Christ was going to die, that was something God knew and had set in motion in the garden. But Christ would have come back right there in Acts 7 had they accepted Him then.
But when they rejected Christ for the final time, Christ sat down "till I make thine enemies thy footstool". The church was a mystery that was then revealed. Had the Jews repented in acts 7, it might have never been revealed, but they did.
Now, the gospel of the kingdom of God is Eph 2:8-9 and 1 Cor 15:1-4. It is by grace through faith, without works that God may "provoke them to jealousy". One day the church will be taken out and the gospel you see preached in the gospels, the one the Jews rejected, will be instituted. It will be a mixture of grace and works.
But don't let the truth you see hide from you the facts of what God is now doing through His church. Don't get some over zealous with the truth you do know that you exclude that which you see doesn't quite fit. God did something new when the Jews rejected Jesus. Salvation is through faith in Christ without works 'right now.'
Please get in while you can :thumb:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Paul's gospel subject to research......
Paul's gospel subject to research......
2 Peter is pseudographical, so is no proof Peter endorsed Paul. Paul's own pompous attitude towards the pillars of the church and conflict with Peter shows more antagonism than camaraderie. Perhaps you need to do more research on Paul....one can begin here & here for starters. Open honest objective investigation of Paul's claims of apostleship and more.
This is one religious belief or opinion held by those who accept Paul's epistles and those ascribed to him. Other views and versions of Christianity exist, both ancient and modern who may or may not take Paul's teaching to heart, since much is allegorical anyways.
Paul's gospel subject to research......
2 Peter is pseudographical, so is no proof Peter endorsed Paul. Paul's own pompous attitude towards the pillars of the church and conflict with Peter shows more antagonism than camaraderie. Perhaps you need to do more research on Paul....one can begin here & here for starters. Open honest objective investigation of Paul's claims of apostleship and more.
This is one religious belief or opinion held by those who accept Paul's epistles and those ascribed to him. Other views and versions of Christianity exist, both ancient and modern who may or may not take Paul's teaching to heart, since much is allegorical anyways.
Thanks for acknowledging that Jesus had been teaching his gospel in hopes of reaching the Jews before the tragic cross.
I will use an analogy. If you went into the jungle and presented confusing, advanced truth to the Bantu tribe and then left, eventually they will make it their own. They will interpret it to the best of their ability based on their own preconceptions and limitations.
That's what happened to the advanced truth of Jesus, they were used to offering sacrifices and found it very difficult to understand that God is just a loving, forgiving Father. I can understand and appreciate how sacrifice minded religious people could easily interpret the cross.
Today, through grace and the work of Christ messengers in the celestial world, the original gospel has come again. That is why I am here on TOL, to tell people about the UB. But just like Jesus and his messengers were hated and mocked, so are we.
I will use an analogy. If you went into the jungle and presented confusing, advanced truth to the Bantu tribe and then left, eventually they will make it their own. They will interpret it to the best of their ability based on their own preconceptions and limitations.
That's what happened to the advanced truth of Jesus, they were used to offering sacrifices and found it very difficult to understand that God is just a loving, forgiving Father. I can understand and appreciate how sacrifice minded religious people could easily interpret the cross.
Today, through grace and the work of Christ messengers in the celestial world, the original gospel has come again. That is why I am here on TOL, to tell people about the UB. But just like Jesus and his messengers were hated and mocked, so are we.
I see, rationalization is the way you protect your self-image.
That's all I need, concerning you.
Good post.
Hey, Caino, I'll bet you miss your fellow "space cadet" Zeke a lot?
Choleric
New member
Blah Blah Blah. Your opinion on the author of 1 and 2 peter is irrelevant. God allowed the author to put his name there, so there is no question. This type of irreverant attitude toward God and His word is what will land you in hell for all eternety.
Again, God put His stamp of approval on Paul and Pauls writings by including them in the canon. I don't need your blathering opinion. You are a fool, who thinks he is smarter than God. Here is how your judgment day conversation will go:
God: away from me you worker of iniquity into everlasting torment. you have counted the blood of the covenant unworthy
Freelight: but i didn't know, how was i supposed to know
God: I put everything you needed to know in a book that was more readily available than a dictionary. You chose your own intellect instead
And anyone who doesn't take to heart:
Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
will burn in hell for all eternity. Please repent of your intellectual rejection of God's truth. You are going to go to hell freelight. Please stop playing hide and seek with truth.
Do yourself a favor, just out of intellectual curiosity. Read the book of John and the book of romans and just for a moment try to pretend it is 100% true, just as it is written in a very literal sense. Try to push your allegorical method aside for this exercise and just attempt to read it literally.
Choleric
New member
The cross was indeed tragic, but it was God's plan all along. Don't separate the two.
This is what you appear to have done. it's like building a house. you start with a plumb line, but every now and then you have to re-check the plumb line to make sure you aren't too far out. What you have done is failed to recheck your plumb line. You have gone after some "wind of doctrine" and you are preaching another gospel "which is not another". You have gone so far without rechecking with God's word, you have invented a gospel that is satanic in origin and is anti-christ.
You are mistaken. The lamb was a type of Christ from the very first book of the bible. God was telling us something about what was going to happen with His Son. Bob had a lamb, and Scott had a lamb, Job had a lamb (Job 1:5) that he offered for his family, Israel had a lamb (day of atonement) and God had a lamb, perfect and without spot or blemish. He is the perfect lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world.
Sorry, you are not hated and mocked like Jesus. This is the standard line all heretics use when they are mocked by true believers. You are just adding to the pile. This is what mormons say and JW's and anyone else outside the faith. The devil tells you to believe that to keep you on the road to hell.
Jesus and Paul were hated by everyone. You are only hated by those that see you teach something heretical, which you readily admit, by denying the New Testament by and large. Jesus and Paul were both hated for telling people that their own personal righteousness was not good enough. The pharisees liked their religion and thought it made them special. The gentiles thought that being "good enough and trying to do right" was enough. Nobody likes being told they are deserving of hell because they are ungodly.
You are teaching the broad road by trying to teach good works for salvation. The world does not hate anyone that preaches that. The world hates anyone who teaches the narrow way, that there is One Man, without whom, no one will see the father and who grants salvation as a gift, not by works of righteousness (titus 3:5).
(Rom 10:4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower and he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit and the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
The human sacrifice proponents have the landowner planning all along for his messengers to get whacked! so that the landowner could finally forgive the tenants.
It's going to be a while but eventually the original gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the world after the ignorant die off.
The human sacrifice proponents have the landowner planning all along for his messengers to get whacked! so that the landowner could finally forgive the tenants.
It's going to be a while but eventually the original gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the world after the ignorant die off.