Free Will
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Nanja
Well-known member
NO. God doesn't love the devil's children Mat. 13:38-39.
He sends them to the lake of fire Mat. 25:41; Rev. 21:8
God's Love is only for the World of His Elect Eph. 1:4; 2 Tim. 1:9.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall ever perish.
What He says is not a "conditional" statement, as you imagine.
Anyone with true faith knows that they will never stop believing the truth. Those with true faith have the "evidence of things not seen" and that evidence comes in the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5). It is impossible to dismiss that evidence and stop believing that evidence. That is why we read the following:
"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1:2).
Do you really think it is possible that one day you might just stop believing?
You obviously do not understand what the Olive Tree symbolizes. It is obviously not speaking about salvation because the Lord Jesus said this:
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).
Yes, and John makes it plain that Christians have already received that promise (1 Jn.5:11).
popsthebuilder
New member
Do all Calvinists think this way.
A serious question
Thanks
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Hard head, hard of hearing.......
Hard head, hard of hearing.......
My first response to the OP and other posts, here, here and here...holds
- I've addressed you and Nanja on pertinent points.
To address your questions above, review my previous posts which speak for themselves, in explaining the wonderful exercise of 'free will', meaning 'freedom of choice', and how/why divine love provides for this faculty in man. Love grants freedom of choice.
Your above questions (tediously proposed) reflect a preconceived and presupposed assumption that man does NOT have freedom of choice, which again, as we've shared would mean man is NOT free at all to be responsible for his own actions, not free to make any choices, not free to think, speak or act on his own volition. We remind you again, the scriptures are full of examples of 'God' allowing man to CHOOSE within any given event, from a variety of options, each of those options having their consequences, their own effects. In this special grant of 'freedom' (however limited within any given context), why would 'God' propose and encourage man to CHOOSE between options, if he was not in fact FREE to do do? Such an assumption is illogical, irrational. To suggest otherwise would be to insult divine intelligence, to deny response-ability, which is what you do, by denying 'free will', further denying the very interprise of LOVE, the free intercourse of covenant-relationiship. If you have no choice in any given situation, you are not free. You would deny what God gives to man for a theology of deprival and fatalism. This appears to leave your theology in a 'grid-lock' of bondage....denying everything that free agency grants to the soul, by divine providence. In some quarters, the word 'anti-God' would be fitting.
Hard head, hard of hearing.......
My first response to the OP and other posts, here, here and here...holds
- I've addressed you and Nanja on pertinent points.To address your questions above, review my previous posts which speak for themselves, in explaining the wonderful exercise of 'free will', meaning 'freedom of choice', and how/why divine love provides for this faculty in man. Love grants freedom of choice.
Your above questions (tediously proposed) reflect a preconceived and presupposed assumption that man does NOT have freedom of choice, which again, as we've shared would mean man is NOT free at all to be responsible for his own actions, not free to make any choices, not free to think, speak or act on his own volition. We remind you again, the scriptures are full of examples of 'God' allowing man to CHOOSE within any given event, from a variety of options, each of those options having their consequences, their own effects. In this special grant of 'freedom' (however limited within any given context), why would 'God' propose and encourage man to CHOOSE between options, if he was not in fact FREE to do do? Such an assumption is illogical, irrational. To suggest otherwise would be to insult divine intelligence, to deny response-ability, which is what you do, by denying 'free will', further denying the very interprise of LOVE, the free intercourse of covenant-relationiship. If you have no choice in any given situation, you are not free. You would deny what God gives to man for a theology of deprival and fatalism. This appears to leave your theology in a 'grid-lock' of bondage....denying everything that free agency grants to the soul, by divine providence. In some quarters, the word 'anti-God' would be fitting.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Okay, lets give this a GO........
Okay, lets give this a GO........
God is One, Universal, Omnipresent.
First fundamental principles and essentials in metaphysics, philosophy and theology hold FIRST.
Now for your proposal above, we understand that all potentials and possibilities are provided for by 'God', for there is no other providence availing. Love would by nature and law, allow ample opportunity for all souls to be saved, within any grant of space or time appropriate in his divine providence. Therefore granting freedom of choice towards either life or death, each soul would be able to choose towards either end, that of survival or distintegration/death. Each soul would then be responsible for their own choice, within the providence granted. Love would encourage, propose, woo, inspire, draw, strive with each soul....to be saved, while still allowing freedom of choice, freedom to deny Love's will. This is the epic drama of life portrayed in the scripture's is it not? In this view of 'free will',....God grants a measure of freedom to each soul that is 'sovereign' respecting its own individual survival or death. While God's will and power is ultimately Sovereign Alone (being the 'context' in which all potentials and possibilities arise),...He grants each soul its own ability to choose its own destiny. In this way, God is wholly fair, wise, just, loving,....realizing that some souls may be lost, so there is that 'risk' in the grant of free will. Some souls may choose death, disintegration, oblivion. Other souls who respond to love's calling, provision, inspiration and will.....will live, prosper, attain immortality. This view is true to a more libertarian freedom.
See: Libertarian free will (theopedia) - there are more extensive articles of course on the subject of 'free will', in its variables, especially with 'compatibilism'. The subject of 'free will' itself has many different dimensions especially within theology, so our understanding of some of these basics are essential in this discussion. For instance, I see valid points or considerations within both 'libertarian' and 'compatiblistic' catagories (considering some 'tensions' inbetween these), so we must be careful not to pin anyone down to any one category of thought, unless they have proven to be solely representative to that category alone. This is a multi-dimensional subject, not just 'black or white' IMO. Its a matter of deep research and introspection, involving one's own conscience, experience and spiritual insight. We must also accept that points of view are subject to change.
Okay, lets give this a GO........
God is One, Universal, Omnipresent.
First fundamental principles and essentials in metaphysics, philosophy and theology hold FIRST.
Now for your proposal above, we understand that all potentials and possibilities are provided for by 'God', for there is no other providence availing. Love would by nature and law, allow ample opportunity for all souls to be saved, within any grant of space or time appropriate in his divine providence. Therefore granting freedom of choice towards either life or death, each soul would be able to choose towards either end, that of survival or distintegration/death. Each soul would then be responsible for their own choice, within the providence granted. Love would encourage, propose, woo, inspire, draw, strive with each soul....to be saved, while still allowing freedom of choice, freedom to deny Love's will. This is the epic drama of life portrayed in the scripture's is it not? In this view of 'free will',....God grants a measure of freedom to each soul that is 'sovereign' respecting its own individual survival or death. While God's will and power is ultimately Sovereign Alone (being the 'context' in which all potentials and possibilities arise),...He grants each soul its own ability to choose its own destiny. In this way, God is wholly fair, wise, just, loving,....realizing that some souls may be lost, so there is that 'risk' in the grant of free will. Some souls may choose death, disintegration, oblivion. Other souls who respond to love's calling, provision, inspiration and will.....will live, prosper, attain immortality. This view is true to a more libertarian freedom.
See: Libertarian free will (theopedia) - there are more extensive articles of course on the subject of 'free will', in its variables, especially with 'compatibilism'. The subject of 'free will' itself has many different dimensions especially within theology, so our understanding of some of these basics are essential in this discussion. For instance, I see valid points or considerations within both 'libertarian' and 'compatiblistic' catagories (considering some 'tensions' inbetween these), so we must be careful not to pin anyone down to any one category of thought, unless they have proven to be solely representative to that category alone. This is a multi-dimensional subject, not just 'black or white' IMO. Its a matter of deep research and introspection, involving one's own conscience, experience and spiritual insight. We must also accept that points of view are subject to change.
beloved57
Well-known member
Where is the scripture?My first response to the OP and other posts, here, here and here...holds
To address your questions above, review my previous posts which speak for themselves, in explaining the wonderful exercise of 'free will', meaning 'freedom of choice', and how/why divine love provides for this faculty in man. Love grants freedom of choice.
Your above questions (tediously proposed) reflect a preconceived and presupposed assumption that man does NOT have freedom of choice, which again, as we've shared would mean man is NOT free at all to be responsible for his own actions, not free to make any choices, not free to think, speak or act on his own volition. We remind you again, the scriptures are full of examples of 'God' allowing man to CHOOSE within any given event, from a variety of options, each of those options having their consequences, their own effects. In this special grant of 'freedom' (however limited within any given context), why would 'God' propose and encourage man to CHOOSE between options, if he was not in fact FREE to do do? Such an assumption is illogical, irrational. To suggest otherwise would be to insult divine intelligence, to deny response-ability, which is what you do, by denying 'free will', further denying the very interprise of LOVE, the free intercourse of covenant-relationiship. If you have no choice in any given situation, you are not free. You would deny what God gives to man for a theology of deprival and fatalism. This appears to leave your theology in a 'grid-lock' of bondage....denying everything that free agency grants to the soul, by divine providence. In some quarters, the word 'anti-God' would be fitting.
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beloved57
Well-known member
God's Truth
New member
He means just what he says. We can know we are saved now and while we are saved now keep on enduring until the end and you will be saved then too.
God's Truth
New member
You say you are not saved now so why do you keep going against me for saying God does not save unbelievers? You have given no scripture that says God saves unbelievers because it does not exist.
God does not give anyone faith without their wanting and knowing either.
I gave scriptures that tell us how we get faith; and I gave scriptures that say how we are saved.
beloved57
Well-known member
False teaching ! All for whom Christ died are given Faith !
God's Truth
New member
We are flesh and spirit.
Not all only want to please their flesh.
Some people are more spiritual.
The people who only want to please their flesh cannot please God.
To be born again is when you come to God the Father through Jesus and you repent of your sins. Jesus washes you clean and puts his Spirit in you. At that time all your sins are gone and you are born again. You have a new life, like starting over without any sin, and reconciled to God.
God made His message to those who fear Him and do what is right.
God chooses tho save those who believe in Him and so what is right.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus doesn't save you and make his home inside your heart if you did not first repent of your sins.
John the baptizer prepared the way for the Lord by having the people repent of their sins before Jesus would come to them.
We still have to prepare our hearts by repenting before Jesus lives with you.
You clean your house before company comes. How much more when you want God to live inside you!
John the baptizer prepared the way for Jesus. He came preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Luke 1:76-80).
We are still to confess that we are sinners, and to repent, to prepare the way for Jesus Christ to live in our heart.
Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
John the baptizer prepared the way for the Lord by having the people repent of their sins before Jesus would come to them.
We still have to prepare our hearts by repenting before Jesus lives with you.
You clean your house before company comes. How much more when you want God to live inside you!
John the baptizer prepared the way for Jesus. He came preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Luke 1:76-80).
We are still to confess that we are sinners, and to repent, to prepare the way for Jesus Christ to live in our heart.
Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
marhig
Well-known member
There are many people that the devil has a hold of, until they meet Christ and then he changes their hearts. So you can't say that God didn't love them before but now he does! Or that you are chosen already, because then there would be no need for the gospel? God wants to see a change of heart. God loves us all, he wants us all back. You and others like you just like to think that your elect and only you and yours are off to be with God. Yet Jesus Christ wants the gospel preached to the whole world.
And this is the love of God
He sent his only begotten son because he loved the world, not only his elect. The whole world, so that whosoever should believe on him should have eternal life! That life is in his son, that life is the holy spirit and that life is given to all those who truly love God, not just to you and your church. And those who are born of God and walk after the spirit will walk in the light, alive in God, seeing and hearing, gone from darkness into light, from death to life.
Without the holy spirit we are dead, with him we are alive and it's all done through Christ, and that goes for all those who truly belong to God, those who do his will, not just you and yours.
marhig
Well-known member
Jesus will never cast is out, and I've never said that. I'm talking about walking away. And many do.
I've spoken to people who were once saved said they used to believe but they are atheists. It's heartbreaking. But regardless of what you say, God can't save this who don't believe in him.
Ben Masada
New member
With the permission of Nanja, I would like to pit in with my response to this one. The answer is NO, HaShem does not command men to do evil. That's men themselves whose Freewill power is too weak to control their passions and chose to act in an evil way.
Nanja
Well-known member
An unregenerate can't please God Rom.8:8.
God gives His Spirit and regenerates His Elect Children, only then shall they please Him.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. -Rom. 8:9
Nanja
Well-known member
marhig
God's Love is only for His Elect.
Eph. 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
They are the only portion of humanity that were Saved from the penalty and condemnation of their sins before the world began; before they ever become sinners in Time.
2 Tim. 1:8-9
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
God's Love is only for His Elect.
Eph. 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
They are the only portion of humanity that were Saved from the penalty and condemnation of their sins before the world began; before they ever become sinners in Time.
2 Tim. 1:8-9
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
popsthebuilder
New member
Only a haughty fool would claim they are saved.
Why am I going against you? Because I know the truth.
Who are you to think that you can come and destroy my faith that was given me from GOD?
Who are you to decide if the substance of faith my faith is worthy?
I was saved while an unbeliever.
You will NEVER convince me of your lies. As if your nonsense can replace my own personal experiences and the mercy and grace of GOD.
I have dropped it repeatedly but you want to bring it back up over and over so fine.
So who are we supposed to speak the gospel too if unbelievers can be converted?
Why did Christ wholly follow the commands of god for the sake of all if people can't be converted and saved?
Evidently you are a Calvinists yourself, claiming that none can be saved unless they are already saved.
Do a little research about loving only your own. Check and see how to regard those you percieve as lesser than you.
I came to you innocently and privately to tell you that based on what I know without a doubt from personal experience, that GOD does save whomever HE so chooses, and that to speak otherwise is to indeed misspeak, and you just couldn't deal with some selfless advice.
You continue to attempt to discredit me personally and twist my words in front of others.
So let me spell it out for you that you might hear the sound software truth as opposed to drowning it out with the noises of your own haughty falseness;
Though I was not a believer, I was GIVEN faith in GOD, free from my own doing.
This faith mercifully received is effectual, and that effect is change, and that effect is is causal to salvation, though I will never claimed to be saved. Not for you, or the sake of argument.
I do NOT consider myself a teacher though based on your more recent ramblings, you could really use one. I simply was attempting to warn you that you misspoke from ignorance. Though it wasn't meant as an insult, I can see how one might hastily take offence. But that was over a week ago and here you are still twisting and contorting my words because of what? Anger? Spite? Haughtiness. We are told to regard none as a teacher but you regard yourself as one. You wreak of self-righteous, better than though, elitist, entitlement. Yes it is certain, you must be a Calvinists. But I wouldn't want to offend them by saying you are one of them. At least their doctrine makes some sort of sense.
Unbelievers can't be saved, hah. Then why not continue in knowing sin right.
You have managed to offend me. I wish you the very best but care not to speak to you in your lies any longer.
You are no Christian. You are no saint, no martar, no prophet, no teacher, no thing whatsoever without the direction of GOD, just like me.
peace
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