Derf
Well-known member
But if the rich man were able to leave the bad side (by being reincarnated) and return to the good side, then some COULD "cross over from there to us."
What is death? What is resurrection? And why do we care?
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But if the rich man were able to leave the bad side (by being reincarnated) and return to the good side, then some COULD "cross over from there to us."
WatchmanOnTheWall
New member
No, he didn't cross over the abyss. People are reincarnated directly from either side of the Abyss to Earth. And also directly from Heaven to Earth. It is an inter-dimensional transition of the spirit of the person to Earth, just like the return journey from Earth to Heaven or Hell.
Eternality is the quality of transcending time (and every other noun). We are not eternal, we are everlasting, or unending, but not eternal.
Derf
Well-known member
Then "time" continues?
John 3:16 KJV is meaningless otherwise.
Derf
Well-known member
It seems to me that you are right. Do you think this helps to inform us about the "time" or lack thereof before creation?
No.
Derf
Well-known member
Is God "everlasting"? Is it in a different way than we are? (I'm not asking about the source of His everlasting characteristic vs ours, but the effect.)
If "yes" (I assume this will be your answer), then if "different", please explain the difference as you see it.
Thanks,
Derf
Sure, because eternal is everlasting, but eternal is more than everlasting.
He's eternal.
Can we experience what God experiences? No.
We would be as limited by time as He has deemed fit.
Derf
Well-known member
So what does "eternal" mean as opposed to "everlasting"? Can you describe it? And how do we know?
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Eternal is unlimited by time. Everlasting is unending. We know it because God cannot be limited by anything, and still have it meaningful to call Him God.
Derf
Well-known member
That's a good one. Thanks!
Derf
Well-known member
Such a broad view can get us in trouble. God is infinite in some things, and has none of some things. I suppose He is limited in how many cows He has, for instance. Not that He couldn't make more, but there's no need.
God is more perfect than infinite, though perfection implies infinite in some cases.
Unfortunately, we measure eternity by comparing it against what we know, but that doesn't necessarily mean that eternity is the opposite of time--depends on what "time" is, and there are a few definitions floating around.
This isn't a broad view at all, God's eternality is specifically limited to the degree to which time limits or bounds God, which is, not at all.
And there are those on TOL who deny that time is nonfiction, but that doesn't matter to whether He is limited by it, since whether time is fictional or nonfiction objective fact, in either case, He is not limited by time.
Derf
Well-known member
But not being limited by time has been described in different ways. One way is that God was in the beginning, He is now, and He will be in the future. God is in all time periods/ages/eons. I think this is the most biblical--He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
The other way is that God is able to move back and forth in time at will. Perhaps the bible allows for this one, but doesn't describe it, as far as I know.
Which do you hold to?
(A possible third way is that God, being outside of time, can interact with any point in time when He wants, but I think that is really a different way of saying the second one above.)
If He ever did "go back in time," then we would never know it since we would never have had a memory of what things were like "before" He "went back in time," so this is a non-issue for me to infer everything that Him not being subject to time entails necessarily, as far as His therefore ability/power wrt time and "time travel." :idunno:
Derf
Well-known member
Whether or not we would be able to detect it, it suggests that something was out of His control at one time, and He had to go back and fix it, based, I suppose, on new knowledge in the future. Makes Him seem incompetent to deal with something in real time. To me, this invalidates a classic Armenian view of God looking into the future to determine who is going to believe, and electing them on the basis before the beginning of time.