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Thread: If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    There is no such thing as an "effectual" draw. If you think that there is please quote verses which speak of it.

    No man can come to the Son

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    How can you say that since you yourself recognize that they are two different thins--one leads to another.
    All connected by God's grace. You can deny that if you want, but you'd be denying the God's word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You continue to make little or no sense so I cannot see how this discussion can possibly bear any fruit.
    I thought I was being quite clear. I'm not using anything outside the bible, nor am I taking any scripture out of context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You refuse to deal with the verses which demonstrate that it is faith which brings life, and not, as the Calvinists teach, that life precedes life.
    You keep on claiming to know what Calvinists teach but you show no evidence of that claim. I explained to you that I believe in sola scriptura and you have not shown me ANY verses to support your claims against Calvinists. You have not shown me anywhere that Calvinists believe life precedes life. What does that even mean? You evidently want to claim faith as a work you're responsible for, instead of by God's grace and mercy. If that's your position, I guess we are at an impasse.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    Well it is no different to the Romans verse "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" The faith is in the word, nay in the One who spake it. Just as He said "let there be light and there was light" so He comes to us in the gospel [watching over it] and commands us to live. I was saved not through the spoken word but by the written word and I remember VIVIDLY how the word entered my soul and I came ALIVE......then was I saved.

    I do believe that this is the way of it whether people are concious of it or not.

    But He begins the good work in us.....seems to me SO important to get this right for it is those people mostly who believe they first came to God who are those who believe they may fall away. If God did the work first to last then we have absolute confidence...unshakable faith.
    Holy Spirit inspired post.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    No man can come to the Son
    So what do you mean by "coming to the Son"?

    There is no such thing as an "effectual" draw. If you think that there is please quote verses which speak of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    All connected by God's grace. You can deny that if you want, but you'd be denying the God's word.
    I never said that they are not connected. I said that faith and salvation are not the same thing.

    You keep on claiming to know what Calvinists teach but you show no evidence of that claim. I explained to you that I believe in sola scriptura and you have not shown me ANY verses to support your claims against Calvinists. You have not shown me anywhere that Calvinists believe life precedes life. What does that even mean? You evidently want to claim faith as a work you're responsible for, instead of by God's grace and mercy. If that's your position, I guess we are at an impasse.
    I meant to say that the Calvinists teach that life precedes faith--that regeneration precedes faith. But the following verse teaches that life comes as a result of faith:

    "Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So what do you mean by "coming to the Son"?



    There is no such thing as an "effectual" draw. If you think that there is please quote verses which speak of it.

    And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled. A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening;
    (General draw)


    and the Lord opened her heart
    (Effectual draw)


    to respond to the things spoken by Paul. (Acts 16:13, 14 NASB)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So what do you mean by "coming to the Son"?

    There is no such thing as an "effectual" draw. If you think that there is please quote verses which speak of it.
    I think that intojoy was thinking about the portion of Scripture below:

    John 6:44 KJV No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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    Romans 10:9-10 KJV That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by journey View Post
    I think that intojoy was thinking about the portion of Scripture below:

    John 6:44 KJV No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    He knows it. Jerry has some issues....

    My main prob with him is he is into open theism. I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    There is no such thing as an "effectual" draw. If you think that there is please quote verses which speak of it.
    This will be a good start for you:

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    He knows it. Jerry has some issues....

    My main prob with him is he is into open theism. I think.
    I'm an Open-Theist and I don't have any problems! At least none that the good Lord isn't aware of and taking care of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bybee View Post
    I'm an Open-Theist and I don't have any problems! At least none that the good Lord isn't aware of and taking care of.

    Once God foreknows something it has to come to pass otherwise God was wrong about what He foreknew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    and the Lord opened her heart
    (Effectual draw)

    to respond to the things spoken by Paul. (Acts 16:13, 14 NASB)
    It is the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit which opens the heart. Every man who hears the gospel will have their hearts opened if they do not resist the Holy Spirit:

    "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye" (Acts 7:31).

    According to your idea only those who receive a so-called effectual calling can be saved. But here we see that even them who are persishing and do not believe could have believed ifnot for the fact that their minds were blinded to the light of the gospel:

    " And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    These unbelievers obviously did not receive a so-called effectual calling but they did receive one which was capable of saving them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    It is the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit which opens the heart. Every man who hears the gospel will have their hearts opened if they do not resist the Holy Spirit:



    "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye" (Acts 7:31).



    According to your idea only those who receive a so-called effectual calling can be saved. But here we see that even them who are persishing and do not believe could have believed ifnot for the fact that their minds were blinded to the light of the gospel:



    " And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).



    These unbelievers obviously did not receive a so-called effectual calling but they did receive one which was capable of saving them.

    Yep they got a genuine offer of salvation even tho their total depravity keeps them
    From believing . My observation

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Yep they got a genuine offer of salvation even tho their total depravity keeps them
    From believing . My observation
    That is not what Paul says. He says that their minds were blinded to the truth of the gospel so they wouldn't see its light.

    That means that they had the ability to see it or otherwise it would be impossible to blind their minds to it.

    That is because a person must first be able to see before they can be blinded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    That is not what Paul says. He says that their minds were blinded to the truth of the gospel so they wouldn't see its light.



    That means that they had the ability to see it or otherwise it would be impossible to blind their minds to it.



    That is because a person must first be able to see before they can be blinded.

    I don't think that's right. I think if God foreknew who would be saved then they will be saved otherwise God was wrong about what He foreknew.

    God knew Adam would fall.

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