User Tag List

Page 4 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 154

Thread: If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me

  1. #46
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    7,277
    Thanks
    412
    Thanked 822 Times in 713 Posts

    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    Put that way, belief becomes a work jerry.

  2. #47
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    13,730
    Thanks
    1,280
    Thanked 8,729 Times in 5,725 Posts

    Mentioned
    97 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147838
    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    That's what I asked is it because we believe that we are chosen?
    Yes, of course it is. That is what this verse clearly says:

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

    Put that way, belief becomes a work jerry.
    Too bad you were not living in the first century so you could have corrected Paul.

  3. #48
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    7,277
    Thanks
    412
    Thanked 822 Times in 713 Posts

    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    ....I KNEW there was some good thing in me, that is in my flesh......isn't God lucky that I chose Him?


    I chose Him before the world was founded so that He could have confidence in my faithfulness.

    How sweet

  4. #49
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    3,141
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 427 Times in 244 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    25270
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

    There's no reason to correct Paul since the Gospel Jesus preached was given Paul directly. We are saved by God's grace. We don't have do anything, but we will. We are saved by grace thru faith. Where did this faith come from? It came from God so that we would not boast because it was a free gift, no strings attached. What about good works? We are God's creation created in Christ Jesus for good works. These works were prepared ahead of time, before the foundations of the universe were laid, so that we should walk and abide in them. Give God and His Son, my Lord and Savior Jesus the Messiah full credit. Don't steal from God's grace and chalk it up to your account as works!
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

  5. #50
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    13,730
    Thanks
    1,280
    Thanked 8,729 Times in 5,725 Posts

    Mentioned
    97 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147838
    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    There's no reason to correct Paul since the Gospel Jesus preached was given Paul directly. We are saved by God's grace. We don't have do anything, but we will. We are saved by grace thru faith. Where did this faith come from?
    Where does faith come from?:

    "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Ro.10:17).

    We can also see that even those who are described as perishing could believe if it were not for the fact that their minds were blinded to the truth of the gospel:

    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    This proves that even those who are unbelievers and are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel. That contradicts the teaching of Calvinism that only those who been regenerated can believe!

  6. #51
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    3,141
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 427 Times in 244 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    25270
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Where does faith come from?:

    "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Ro.10:17).

    We can also see that even those who are described as perishing could believe if it were not for the fact that their minds were blinded to the truth of the gospel:

    "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

    This proves that even those who are unbelievers and are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel. That contradicts the teaching of Calvinism that only those who been regenerated can believe!
    The answer to the question is given in Ephesians which I quoted. I do not need to mix and match Paul's letters to support my theology.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

  7. #52
    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Winchester, Hants
    Posts
    8,295
    Thanks
    222
    Thanked 1,390 Times in 800 Posts

    Blog Entries
    14
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1203411
    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    How sweet
    Quaint
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

  8. #53
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    13,730
    Thanks
    1,280
    Thanked 8,729 Times in 5,725 Posts

    Mentioned
    97 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147838
    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    The answer to the question is given in Ephesians which I quoted. I do not need to mix and match Paul's letters to support my theology.
    It is salvation which is the gift of God, not faith. And you just ignored the passage which I quoted which proves that the Calvinists are in error when they teach that a person must be given life before they can believe.

    But the words of John here makes it plain that "life" comes as a result of believing and not before believing:

    "Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

    The passage I quoted earlier proves that even those who are described as perishing could believe the gospel if their minds were not blinded to its light.

  9. #54
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    3,141
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 427 Times in 244 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    25270
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    It is salvation which is the gift of God, not faith. And you just ignored the passage which I quoted which proves that the Calvinists are in error when they teach that a person must be given life before they can believe.

    But the words of John here makes it plain that "life" comes as a result of believing and not before believing:
    "Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).
    The passage I quoted earlier proves that even those who are described as perishing could believe the gospel if their minds were not blinded to its light.
    We are saved (salvation) by grace (unmerited and unearned favor from God) through faith (there can be no salvation without faith and where does that faith come from?) faith comes from God (that's what the Bible states) not by works (salvation by works is pharisaical) so that no one can brag (not even you or I). Good works will accompany our salvation because God has prepared them for us (God leaves nothing to chance). [Ephesians 2:8-10)

    Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples (signs and wonders accompany Jesus wherever He is, and the Elect, those chosen by God before the foundation of the world was laid, respond to them). These signs and wonders are written (so those Elect of us not present will respond as if we were, I can certainly attest to that), that believe (once again the gift of faith we have not earned) will have life (beyond this earthly habitat) in His name. Praise God, praise Jesus and praise the Holy Spirit. Amen. [John 20:30-31]
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

  10. #55
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    13,730
    Thanks
    1,280
    Thanked 8,729 Times in 5,725 Posts

    Mentioned
    97 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147838
    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    We are saved (salvation) by grace (unmerited and unearned favor from God) through faith (there can be no salvation without faith and where does that faith come from?) faith comes from God (that's what the Bible states)
    Calvinism teaches that life precedes faith and it is that life which gives a person the ability to believe the gospel. However, the Apostle John makes it plain that "life" comes as a result of believing and nor prior to believing:

    "Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

    We can see that same truth here:

    " And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).

    No one can be made TOGETHER with Christ while they remain defiled in their sins and no one has their sins forgiven until they believe:

    "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43).

    The following verse shows our position in Christ when we are made alive together with us:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    That life which we are made alive "together" with Him is described as "eternal life." John Calvin says the following about 1 John 5:11:

    "But the Apostle, that he might keep us together in Christ, again repeats that life is found in him; as though he had said, that no other way of obtaining life has been appointed for us by God the Father. And the Apostle, indeed, briefly includes here three things: that we are all given up to death until God in his gratuitous favor restores us to life; for he plainly declares that life is a gift from God: and hence also it follows that we are destitute of it, and that it cannot be acquired by merits; secondly, he teaches us that this life is conferred on us by the gospel, because there the goodness and the paternal love of God is made known to us; lastly, he says that we cannot otherwise become partakers of this life than by believing in Christ" (John Calvin, Commentary on 1 John 5:11).
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; March 7th, 2014 at 09:22 PM.

  11. #56
    ☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) ☜☜☜☜☞☞☞☞ A Calvinist! ☜☜☜☜☜ Ask Mr. Religion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Chandler, Arizona USA
    Posts
    6,831
    Thanks
    4,542
    Thanked 4,023 Times in 2,297 Posts

    Blog Entries
    148
    Mentioned
    88 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)



    Rep Power
    2147700
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Calvinism teaches that life precedes faith and it is that life which gives a person the ability to believe the gospel.
    The spiritually dead cannot receive the Good News by faith, as their total inability prevents as such, for the lost...

    - is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
    - is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
    - loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
    - is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
    - is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
    - is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
    - is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
    - cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
    - is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

    Hence it should be clear from Scripture that once the spiritually dead are quickened by the efficacious grace of God through the power of the Holy Spirit, their hearts of stone replaced with hearts of flesh (Eze. 36:26), that they will then want and will believe.

    Once so regenerated the chosen of God will believe and be "in Christ", possessing the life of which the verses you have twisted actually teach, for it is in Him that we live and breathe (Acts 17:28).

    AMR
    Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



    Do you confess?
    Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
    AMR's Randomata Blog
    ó Learn Reformed Doctrine
    I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
    Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
    Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
    The best TOL Social Group: here.
    If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
    Why?



  12. #57
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    13,730
    Thanks
    1,280
    Thanked 8,729 Times in 5,725 Posts

    Mentioned
    97 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147838
    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    The spiritually dead cannot receive the Good News by faith, as their total inability prevents as such, for the lost...
    They indeed can since the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    And why did you fail to address the verses which I cited that disprove the idea of Calvinism that life does not precede life?

  13. #58
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    3,141
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 427 Times in 244 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    25270
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Calvinism teaches that life precedes faith and it is that life which gives a person the ability to believe the gospel. However, the Apostle John makes it plain that "life" comes as a result of believing and nor prior to believing:
    Do you have a particular problem with anything I wrote above? I promise (Lord willing) that we'll get to the rest of your post when I'm home and have had a beer (just 1). Show me where you think I'm in error in either paragraph, without bringing in more scripture to muddy the waters.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

  14. #59
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    13,730
    Thanks
    1,280
    Thanked 8,729 Times in 5,725 Posts

    Mentioned
    97 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147838
    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    Do you have a particular problem with anything I wrote above?
    Let us look first at what you said here:

    Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples (signs and wonders accompany Jesus wherever He is, and the Elect, those chosen by God before the foundation of the world was laid, respond to them). (beyond this earthly habitat) in His name. Praise God, praise Jesus and praise the Holy Spirit. Amen. [John 20:30-31]
    The elect are chosen because they believe:

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

    So it is not like God chose the elect and then gave them a so-called gift of faith so that they might believe. They were chosen because they believe.

    We are saved (salvation) by grace (unmerited and unearned favor from God) through faith (there can be no salvation without faith and where does that faith come from?) faith comes from God (that's what the Bible states)
    Faith comes from God in the sense that He sends His ministers to preach the gospel and faith comes by hearing the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. Those who do not resist the Holy Spirit will believe.

    not by works (salvation by works is pharisaical) so that no one can brag (not even you or I). Good works will accompany our salvation because God has prepared them for us (God leaves nothing to chance). [Ephesians 2:8-10)
    Salvation is not attained through works and I can agree with the rest.

  15. #60
    Blessed is the man that...... Psalmist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    A quiet place.
    Posts
    4,761
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 474 Times in 401 Posts

    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    282817
    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Jerry,

    There is no if in God's vocabulary, for He knows all things past, present, and future, having ordained them. The human nature of Jesus was speaking here, staggering under the weight of what was to come, the cup, that is, the wrath of God. While in this terrible state, note how our Lord, while shrinking from this coming wrath, refused to shrink from doing the eternal will of God, pactum salutis, perfectly willing to drink of the last drop of the cup for those whom He was sent.

    AMR
    Staggering under the weight of what was to come.

    I cannot imagine the weight or load that Jesus bore, some might say the weight of the world. I was reminded of Luke 9:51, Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, "Set" is to be resolute or I suppose with steadfast determination, so it would be even asking as we read in Matthew 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." I believe even though Jesus ask if it's possible... Still He was set, resolute and determined to to carry out the will of the Father.

    May that be so for us in our daily Christian lives to say, "Never the less, not my will, but Father Your will."

    That probably reads going around in a circle, but that's what I think.


    .....O LORD my God, in You I put my trust. Psalm 7:1
    .....To You, O LORD, I lift up my soul.
    Psalm 25:1

    Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia

    The best portion of a personís life -- are the little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and love. ~ William Wordsworth

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us