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Thread: If It Be Possible, Let This Cup Pass From Me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    But that does not explain what He said here:
    "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).
    So we can see that with the Lord Jesus the necessity to be crucified arose, not because of an irrevocable prophecy of the past, but instead from the sovereign will of the Father.

    The Lord Jesus did not think that it was impossible that He might be spared from the sufferings so He did not think the future was closed.
    I think that you already know the answer, or you should. Jesus Christ was fully human and fully God. That was the human side of Jesus Christ, yet He still knew that He would go to the cross and when.
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    Romans 10:9-10 KJV That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by journey View Post
    I think that you already know the answer, or you should. Jesus Christ was fully human and fully God. That was the human side of Jesus Christ, yet He still knew that He would go to the cross and when.
    Did the Lord Jesus think that there might be a possibility that He might be spared the agony of the Cross, especially when we look at His prayer to the Father on the eve of the crucifixion?:

    "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    All you do is show your limited understanding of the fact that God exists outside of time. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

    "There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).

    According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." Since that is true then verses that speak of God's foreknowledge cannot be understood in a literal sense. John Wesley had the same understanding of this:

    "The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostles words, 'With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;' and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, 'I the Lord change not'...Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally?" [emphasis mine] (John Wesley, Sermons on Several Occasions, 1771, Second Series, "On Predestination," Sermon #58; Christian Classics Ethereal Library).
    I suppose there is a pony in there somewhere, Jerry, but you will have to relate this to the context of my responses related to our Lord's pending crucifixion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I suppose there is a pony in there somewhere, Jerry, but you will have to relate this to the context of my responses related to our Lord's pending crucifixion.
    My response was in regard to what you said here:

    "There is no if in God's vocabulary, for He knows all things past, present, and future, having ordained them."

    Here you are putting the actions of God into a sequence, where He first ordained something to happen and then that thing happened. However, the Calvinistic understanding of God's timelessness is expressed here by William Ames:

    "There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Did the Lord Jesus think that there might be a possibility that He might be spared the agony of the Cross, especially when we look at His prayer to the Father on the eve of the crucifixion?:
    "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).
    No.

    John 3:16-18 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Hebrews 9:15-17 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
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    Romans 10:9-10 KJV That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by journey View Post
    No.
    If the Lord Jesus did not think that there might be a possibility that He might be spared the agony of the Cross then why did He pray the following to the Father?:

    "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).

    If the Lord Jesus did not think that it might be possible then why would He say, "if it be possible"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If the Lord Jesus did not think that there might be a possibility that He might be spared the agony of the Cross then why did He pray the following to the Father?:
    "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).
    If the Lord Jesus did not think that it might be possible then why would He say, "if it be possible"?
    Already answered - see my previous posts for the only answers you're going to get from me on this issue.
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    Romans 10:9-10 KJV That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by journey View Post
    Already answered
    Youcould not have already answered it because I did not even ask the question until my last post. Here it is again:

    If the Lord Jesus did not think that it might be possible then why would He say, "if it be possible"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    My response was in regard to what you said here:

    "There is no if in God's vocabulary, for He knows all things past, present, and future, having ordained them."

    Here you are putting the actions of God into a sequence, where He first ordained something to happen and then that thing happened. However, the Calvinistic understanding of God's timelessness is expressed here by William Ames:

    "There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).
    I have no problem with Ames' view of the eternal now of God. I fail to see how your use herein somehow makes your point regarding the unsettled theist's view of God's knowledge of the future. Of course there is no passage of time in God's existence. He is above time, wholly other than time--which He created. How does that prevent God from ordaining the temporal events in the universe He created? Do you not think that God is right now holding up the universe, including the very atoms that comprise the same? Odd that is of you, Jerry. The "ends before the means" is Ames' way (and the Reformed way) of describing the logical order of the decree of God and has nothing to do with implying sequence in the mind of God. For more study infra and supra-lapsarianism and it will become clear to you.

    Have you even read the full Marrow of Theology, Jerry or do you just grab a quote here and there as you scurry about the internet looking for anti-Calvinistic fodder?

    For that matter, what actual books have you fully read about open theism? Titles and authors please.

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    Hehe "scurry"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I have no problem with Ames' view of the eternal now of God.
    You have not put enough thought into it or you would realize that it destroys your position. Since with God all things happen simultaneously and there is nothing with Him that can be considered as either in the past or in the future then we must look closely at what is said in the following verse:

    "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).

    Could it not also be said that God chose us "after" the foundation of the world as well? After all, since all things are simultaneous with God then common sense dictates that with God the very moment which He chose us "before" the foundation of the world was the same exact moment for Him that occurred "after" the foundation of the world. It could also be said that He chose us when we believed.

    In the following verse we see similiar figurative language:

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

    So it can be said that God, who exists in the eternal state, chose us for salvation before the foundation of the world. It can also be said that He chose us for salvation when we believed.

    But for us, who exist in "time," there can only be one conclusion. God did not chose us for salvation until we believed.

    That, my friend, proves that salvation is open and our salvation is not limited in any way even though the Scriptures speak of some being chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; March 1st, 2014 at 09:08 PM.

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    No it can not be said "after"

    Because if God operates outside of time then there is no after only present. That means a decision was made before an end could be seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    That, my friend, proves that salvation is open and our salvation is not limited in any way even though the Scriptures speak of some being chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.
    Since you will not take the time to follow my suggestion related to the logical order of the decree, I will point you to a starting point:

    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/sup_infr.htm

    Review carefully and you will have a better understanding of what is going on related to your use of Ames.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Since you will not take the time to follow my suggestion related to the logical order of the decree, I will point you to a starting point:
    I see that you did not even attempt to prove that I am wrong. instead, you want to talk about something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    No it can not be said "after"

    Because if God operates outside of time then there is no after only present. That means a decision was made before an end could be seen.
    God the Father, outside of time (a created dimension), makes sense to me.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

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