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Thread: The Real Meaning of Predestination in the Bible

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    TOL Legend Cross Reference's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    No, that is exactly wrong. It is 'according to purpose', not 'according to the purpose'.

    Here is the Greek and I have highlighted the relevant words:

    οιδαμεν δε οτι τοις αγαπωσιν τον θεον παντα συνεργει εις αγαθον τοις κατα προθεσιν κλητοις ουσιν

    So Ardima is right. And your sentence

    makes no sense because purpose is the intended end point. Purpose doesn't bring you anywhere. Purpose is what's at the end not what's at the beginning. And you don't even need to be able to read the Greek text to know this. You just need common sense modern English. God called us according to purpose means that God called us with a purpose in mind and that purpose was for us to be conformed to the image of his son.
    God's purpose for my end is fatherhood: "I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father.
    I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one." 1 John 2:13-14 (ESV)

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose/plan of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" Ephesians 1:11 (KJV)


    Apologies kindly accepted. And my sentence will make more sense when you read that way.
    Nope. Wrong again.

    11ἐν αὐτῷ,N ἐν ᾧ καὶ ἐκληρώθημεν προορισθέντες κατὰ πρόθεσιν τοῦ τὰ πάντα ἐνεργοῦντος κατὰ τὴν βουλὴν τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ,

    Your apologies are accepted. The purpose was:

    That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    which was in the very next verse, which you couldn't be bothered to quote because proof texters who love to distort the Bible prefer to quote single verses or even phrases because it diverts their readers from examining too deeply in case they find out the fault in your argument. Predestinated doesn't mean that everything that happened to us was predicted in advance. It means that the inheritance that we, who first trusted in Christ, received was that we should be to the praise of his glory. Your version is just a twisted distortion of the real thing.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

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    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
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    Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
    Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, [B]according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself": Eph 1:9 (KJV)

    [I]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.[/I
    Eph.1:12-14 KJV [Note the fulfillment in that passage to see it as the ways and means of understanding the gospel given on the day of Pentecost that Satan wars against with those in the body of Christ.]

    Well since you don't know what is the "Praise of His Glory", perhaps you can explain what is the"purpose" of "His good pleasure", for which we are given to "work out our own salvation"? __ that all Calvinists accuse as being nothing more than "works for initial salvation" by ignoring the "purpose" for which we are admonished to seek God to know Him, to know His ways, per John 17:3 KJV!!

    Apology request, back on.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Note the fulfillment in that passage to see it as the ways and means of understanding the gospel given on the day of Pentecost that Satan wars against with those in the body of Christ.
    Sorry, which verse of the Bible is this from?

    Give it up, CR, you haven't got a leg to stand on other than your own wish that the Bible say something that it doesn't in fact say. You may teach this stuff to willing sufferers but when you get a real audience like here on TOL, the standards of evidence rise considerably. We are not so gullible.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

  6. #21
    TOL Legend Cross Reference's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    Sorry, which verse of the Bible is this from?
    Which verse are you referring to?

    Give it up, CR, you haven't got a leg to stand on other than your own wish that the Bible say something that it doesn't in fact say. You may teach this stuff to willing sufferers but when you get a real audience like here on TOL, the standards of evidence rise considerably. We are not so gullible.

    I showed where it did say it. What else do you want, more translations, maybe from the Greek? What cult do you espouse that you believe is worth digging in your heels over?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    What cult do you espouse that you believe is worth digging in your heels over?
    The cult of open, verifiable and honest Biblical interpretation.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    The cult of open, verifiable and honest Biblical interpretation.
    Then accept what I gave you that rebuffs your understanding and prove yourself as being that..

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Then accept what I gave you that rebuffs your understanding and prove yourself as being that..
    I will accept what you say when you demonstrate a single shred of intelligence and honesty in your handling of the inspired words of God. I don't know how you can look your wife and children in the face. They look up to you for wisdom and nourishment and you give them pigswill.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    I will accept what you say w.
    I didn't say accept what I say but the "scriptures" I gave you. I didn't have to add to them as you did yours.


    How come you can't resist misrepresenting the words of others?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose/plan of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" Ephesians 1:11 (KJV)


    Apologies kindly accepted. And my sentence will make more sense when you read that way.
    The actual emphasis is in the first two words of that passage - "IN WHOM..."

    In other words, God predetermined to bring to pass some things in His Son.

    The moment you believe Christ died for you, the Spirit places you IN Christ.

    You are then a part of, in fact, a fellow heir with Him, IN what the Father has determined to bring to pass IN His Son.

    A simple example of this would be, say you decide you'd like to take a plane trip somewhere.

    You call an airline to find out what flights they have predestinated to fly to your desired location.

    You buy a ticket to a seat IN that plane. When you get to the airport they place you IN that plane.

    You are now a part of the destination that airline predetermined for that plane's "Body" you are now a traveling "Member" of.

    Say, you do not decide to place your trust in airlines and their predestinated fights.

    Nevertheless, off to that destination that plane will take off to as predestinated by that airline.

  12. #27
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    I will accept what you say when you demonstrate a single shred of intelligence and honesty in your handling of the inspired words of God. I don't know how you can look your wife and children in the face. They look up to you for wisdom and nourishment and you give them pigswill.
    Friendly reminder: CR claims that on the night of Christ's arrest, the only reason the mob fell down at His I AM is merely because they were surprised He admitted to being the one they sought. Even though Judas already ID'd him.

    CR is as dishonest as he is stupid. Don't expect integrity. It isn't there.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    I didn't say accept what I say but the "scriptures" I gave you. I didn't have to add to them as you did yours.


    CR, your statement above is exactly refuted by what you actually said which I quote below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Eph.1:12-14 KJV [Note the fulfillment in that passage to see it as the ways and means of understanding the gospel given on the day of Pentecost that Satan wars against with those in the body of Christ.
    What you say here is not scripture. You asked us to note this opinion, which is the same as asking us to accept it. I already asked you for the scripture passage you took this from because you previously stated that you were citing scripture. The fact is that this is not scripture.

    You may wishfully think that you didn't say 'Accept what I say' but you did say that. You can't deny this because it is there on record.


    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Friendly reminder: CR claims that on the night of Christ's arrest, the only reason the mob fell down at His I AM is merely because they were surprised He admitted to being the one they sought. Even though Judas already ID'd him.

    CR is as dishonest as he is stupid. Don't expect integrity. It isn't there.
    I don't know about either one, though it would not surprise me. This is a typical characteristic of proof-texters. His position was completely refuted because the Greek text did not support his interpretation of it. Whilst he may ask us to 'note what he says' about some English translation, he can't get round the original text.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post

    CR, your statement above is exactly refuted by what you actually said which I quote below:



    What you say here is not scripture. You asked us to note this opinion, which is the same as asking us to accept it. I already asked you for the scripture passage you took this from because you previously stated that you were citing scripture. The fact is that this is not scripture.

    You may wishfully think that you didn't say 'Accept what I say' but you did say that. You can't deny this because it is there on record.




    I don't know about either one, though it would not surprise me. This is a typical characteristic of proof-texters. His position was completely refuted because the Greek text did not support his interpretation of it. Whilst he may ask us to 'note what he says' about some English translation, he can't get round the original text.

    Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Eph.1:12-14 KJV [Note the fulfillment in that passage to see it as the ways and means of understanding the gospel given on the day of Pentecost that Satan wars against with those in the body of Christ.


    Read it again, for the first time. Maybe get both oars in the water this time before "mouthing off".

  15. #30
    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    [YELLOW]Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post[Note the fulfillment in that passage to see it as the ways and means of understanding the gospel given on the day of Pentecost that Satan wars against with those in the body of Christ.

    Read it again, for the first time. Maybe get both oars in the water this time before "mouthing off".
    Which part of

    I didn't have to add to them as you did yours.
    do you not understand?
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

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