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Thread: Is the Future Open?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If God knows all things which will happen in the future and since He cannot be wrong about what he knows, then all human actions will turn out only one way.



    And if this is true then how can people really have a will that can be called a "free will" since the future can turn out only one way?



    Therefore, some argue that man really has no free will since all that will happen has already been determined.



    Is that what you believe?

    There is no such thing as unlimited free will.

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    The idea that people are not born in sin is not biblical either. I guess despite all of the knowledge you share in many of your posts eventually these two points is where the unity between us ends.
    You have a lot of good things to say but these two are critical errors.

  3. #48
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero45 View Post
    Depends on what "the ages" are and if time existed before them.
    I am wondered what evidence you have that makes you think that God is bound by time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by journey View Post
    Almighty God had FOREKNOWLEDGE of ALL before the foundation of the world.
    So if you are right and God has a foreknowledge of all things. And since God cannot be wrong about what he knows, then all human actions will turn out only one way.

    And if this is true then how can people really have a will that can be called a "free will" since the future can turn out only one way?

    How would you answer that question?

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    You have a lot of good things to say but these two are critical errors.
    Yes, and despite my best efforts to set you straight, you continue to believe those myths.

    There is no such thing as unlimited free will.
    In what way is it limited?

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So if you are right and God has a foreknowledge of all things. And since God cannot be wrong about what he knows, then all human actions will turn out only one way.

    And if this is true then how can people really have a will that can be called a "free will" since the future can turn out only one way?

    How would you answer that question?
    Well I would start by noting that your assumption God can be wrong will be taken to task by the open theist who claims God is just so smart He can probabilistically figure things out. It is their common and erroneous rationale to avoid claiming God is wrong. In effect, God is the Survivor God, outwitting, outlasting, and outplaying, His autonomous creatures. So it is good to see you would admit God is wrong about things.

    Seems to me you will need to grapple with the issues I and others have raised along these lines elsewhere:

    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=41620
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=63586

    You also need to come to grips with the fact that by your "logic", the God of Abraham knew less than God does today. God seems to be getting smarter every day as He discovers the decisions of His creatures, decisions He apparently could only "predict" but could not know with utter certainty until His autonomous creatures acted.

    Which is better? God who predicts with Ivory Soap percentages, 99.44 percentages or one who knows with 100 percent certainty? Even the smallest chance of being wrong means we should not be assuming God will keep His promises.

    Such is the folly of man's attempt to make out God according to our finite minds because we want to think we can get God off the hook for evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, and despite my best efforts to set you straight, you continue to believe those myths.







    In what way is it limited?

    It is limited in that it is the end of what we can agree on.

  8. #53
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Well I would start by noting that your assumption God can be wrong will be taken to task by the open theist who claims God is just so smart He can probabilistically figure things out.
    I never said nor hinted that God can be wrong!

    I challenge you to quote me saying such a thing!
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; February 27th, 2014 at 08:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Well I would start by noting that your assumption God can be wrong will be taken to task by the open theist who claims God is just so smart He can probabilistically figure things out. It is their common and erroneous rationale to avoid claiming God is wrong. In effect, God is the Survivor God, outwitting, outlasting, and outplaying, His autonomous creatures. So it is good to see you would admit God is wrong about things.

    Seems to me you will need to grapple with the issues I and others have raised along these lines elsewhere:

    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=41620
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=63586

    You also need to come to grips with the fact that by your "logic", the God of Abraham knew less than God does today. God seems to be getting smarter every day as He discovers the decisions of His creatures, decisions He apparently could only "predict" but could not know with utter certainty until His autonomous creatures acted.

    Which is better? God who predicts with Ivory Soap percentages, 99.44 percentages or one who knows with 100 percent certainty? Even the smallest chance of being wrong means we should not be assuming God will keep His promises.

    Such is the folly of man's attempt to make out God according to our finite minds because we want to think we can get God off the hook for evil.

    AMR

    I'll check out the threads.

    Whose the pic of in Jerry's avatar?

    Is that who he thinks he is now?

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I am wondered what evidence you have that makes you think that God is bound by time?
    I don't think God is bound by time. I don't even understand "bound by time", (in the case of God) and I hear it a lot. Would an example of that be God trying to get something done, but run out of time? I don't think that can happen to God. I'd like a description of God being bound by time. Bound suggests He could be hindered by time somehow. How?
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Whose the pic of in Jerry's avatar?
    http://www.amazon.com/SIR-ROBERT-AND...obert+anderson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero45 View Post
    I don't think God is bound by time. I don't even understand "bound by time", (in the case of God) and I hear it a lot. Would an example of that be God trying to get something done, but run out of time? I don't think that can happen to God. I'd like a description of God being bound by time. Bound suggests He could be hindered by time somehow. How?
    Being bound by time implies that God cannot be existing in the future at the same moment when He is existing during the present time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

    I should have guessed!
    You know Arnold corrected his math on the 69 weeks equation SRA wrote about?

    Let me know what you think of that sometime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Being bound by time implies that God cannot be existing in the future at the same moment when He is existing during the present time.

    It implies that but we still don't know do we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    I should have guessed!
    You know Arnold corrected his math on the 69 weeks equation SRA wrote about?

    Let me know what you think of that sometime.
    I acknowledge that Anderson's calculations were not correct. However, there have been many who spotted his error before Arnold:

    http://www.pickle-publishing.com/pap...t-anderson.htm

    But I doubt if Arnold has the right dates. I know that the much praised book on this out of Dallas Theological Seminary (Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ by Harold Hoehner) got it wrong.

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