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Thread: Is the Future Open?

  1. #31
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Yes.

    And because God saw everything He according to His omnipotence allowed for the fall of man.
    If the Lord Jesus knew that there was no possibility that he would be spared the agony of the Cross then why would He pray the following to the Father?:

    "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If the Lord Jesus knew that there was no possibility that he would be spared the agony of the Cross then why would He pray the following to the Father?:



    "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).

    Easy question. Got anything deeper/better?

    Obviously Yeshua was limited in His bodily form.

    This is seen even by satan when satan suggested that Yeshua throw Himself down and the angels would rescue Him. He was limited in His incarnate form and His body was subject to physical death.

    Now, can God die? No. Then how did God die? God died in bodily form in the person of His Son. When God added humanity to His divine nature He did so choosing to subject the Son to the physical limitations of hunger, thirst and death. When Yeshua prayed Father let the cup pass from me, it was because he understood the physical pain he was about to endure.

    Does God feel physical pain? No.
    Did God feel physical pain? Yes.
    How? He felt it when He chose to suffer our penalty on our behalf as a man.

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    Over 1500 post club Vaquero45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I learned that part of the creation is in regard to what is called "spacetime" by Einstein. And since it is an integral part of creation then it must be a created thing, something that did not even exist before God created the universe.

    Plus, in my opinion, 2 Peter 3:8 indicates that God is not constrained by time so therefore He is outside of time.
    Well I don't know what "spacetime" is so maybe there's the problem. Time is a measurement. It doesn't exist without events to measure between. It isn't a thing. Space, I'm not totally sure on. 2 Peter 3:8 merely says God is not slow, He is patient, the way I read it.



    "Did you mean "If space exists OUTSIDE of God"?
    No I did mean inside. If God is infinite, nothing is outside of him, including space, if space is indeed a thing. And therefore if space did not exist, There is still God. Probably would have been better for me to say "if space is a created thing" than to differentiate inside or outside of God, and as far as drawing a picture of "no space" goes it doesn't really make a difference. Might be more clear to think of space as "distance". I'm leaning more toward space not being a "thing" the more I think about it, but I'm starting to ramble now and will quit typing my thoughts out loud.
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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Easy question. Got anything deeper/better?

    Obviously Yeshua was limited in His bodily form.
    He was not so limited that he was unaware of the prophecies which foretold of His death.

    So we can see that with the Lord Jesus the necessity to be crucified arose, not because of an irrevocable prophecy of the past, but instead from the sovereign will of the Father. He knew that it was indeed possible that the cup could be passed from Him if there was another way whereby redemption could be obtained, and that is why we see Him praying in the following way:

    "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).

    The Lord Jesus didn't think it was impossible but you do.

  5. #35
    Patron Saint of SMACK Delmar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I have already quoted a verse which demonstrates that God is not bound by time.

    .

    You infer more from that verse than is clearly stated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero45 View Post
    Well I don't know what "spacetime" is so maybe there's the problem.
    Perhaps it is. But let us look at what you said earlier and my response:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero45 View Post
    Here is Bob Enyart's take on it. I don't know what you think of his teaching but this is pretty straight forward and should be easy to shoot down if he is wrong about the Greek. From the little I've looked into it he seems to be correct.

    Bad Translations: "Before time began" (2 Tim. 1:9 & Titus 1:2) is widely quoted yet in the Greek text of the New Testament there is no verb "began" in the original language. And the singular word "time" does not appear. Instead, Paul wrote, "before the times of the ages," which is very different from the way many of our Bible versions render this phrase, which translations do not flow from the grammar but from on the translators' commitment to Greek philosophy.
    What can the words "before the times of the ages" mean if it is not referring to "before time began"?

    Does not the word "ages" speak of time? Did time exist before the first age began? I cannot see how it could.

    What interpretation would you put on those words?

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delmar View Post
    You infer more from that verse than is clearly stated.
    that is your opinion but I do not share your opinion, especially with the following verses in view:

    "He has saved us and called us to a holy lifeónot because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time" (2 Tim.1:9).

    "in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time" (Titus1:2).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    He was not so limited that he was unaware of the prophecies which foretold of His death.



    So we can see that with the Lord Jesus the necessity to be crucified arose, not because of an irrevocable prophecy of the past, but instead from the sovereign will of the Father. He knew that it was indeed possible that the cup could be passed from Him if there was another way whereby redemption could be obtained, and that is why we see Him praying in the following way:



    "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).



    The Lord Jesus didn't think it was impossible but you do.

    What the hell are you talking about?
    If you are an open theist spit it out man.

  9. #39
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    What the hell are you talking about?
    You know exactly what I am talking about.

    If you are an open theist spit it out man.
    I believe that the future is open but I do not agree with the teaching that those who are called "open theists."

    The prayer of the Lord Jesus to the Father which I quoted proves that the future is open. He certainly did not believe that dying on the Cross was inevitable or settled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You know exactly what I am talking about.







    I believe that the future is open but I do not agree with the teaching that those who are called "open theists."



    The prayer of the Lord Jesus to the Father which I quoted proves that the future is open. He certainly did not believe that dying on the Cross was inevitable or settled.

    It would've saved a lot of misunderstanding if you didn't hide this.

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    Over 1500 post club Vaquero45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Perhaps it is. But let us look at what you said earlier and my response:



    What can the words "before the times of the ages" mean if it is not referring to "before time began"?

    Does not the word "ages" speak of time? Did time exist before the first age began? I cannot see how it could.

    What interpretation would you put on those words?
    Depends on what "the ages" are and if time existed before them. At the moment my basic answer would be "before recorded history" but I'm not entirely satisfied with that. "The times" suggests periods of known history to me, "the ages" could be the entirety of time since creation, and maybe even before? or could refer to specific ages. I found an article where someone put a fair amount of work into answering this, I don't know if I agree with it, I've only really skimmed through it so far and I don't know who wrote it, but it looks interesting. Sharing the link since you also are interested in the topic. Not posting it as an answer.

    http://www.biblicaltruthseekers.co.u...ION%20PLAN.pdf

    If I improve or change my answer I'll respond again. I don't see "before time began" being the simple answer though, I still think putting "began/beginning" in there is a leap.
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  12. #42
    Over 2000 post club journey's Avatar
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    Almighty God had FOREKNOWLEDGE of ALL before the foundation of the world. This does not hint that God ordered our lives for us - just that He knew what we would do and when. Jesus Christ knew that He would go to the cross and when, and He went willingly.

    This also doesn't hint that Calvinism is a true doctrine. So, know that I'm not a Calvinist. God didn't pre-program anyone to accept or reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Jesus Christ died on the Cross for ALL the world, and literally anyone can accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. God knowing who will or won't accept Jesus Christ changes nothing, including man's free will to choose. God's FOREKNOWLEDGE helps to explain many portions of Scripture, but it doesn't hint that God made things to happen any particular way. Just my two cents worth.
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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    It would've saved a lot of misunderstanding if you didn't hide this.
    I didn't hide anything. Go back to my initial post on this thread and after presenting my argument I said that the future is open.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I didn't hide anything. Go back to my initial post on this thread and after presenting my argument I said that the future is open.

    I'd never heard of open theism before. Is that what you believe?

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    I'd never heard of open theism before. Is that what you believe?
    I believe that the future is open but I do not agree with the teaching that those who are called "open theists."

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