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Thread: Is the Future Open?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Of course you are not buying that because it clearly shows that the future is not settled.

    Oh

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    No...I'm not buying that. You can tho
    If the future is not settled, that puts in jeopardy biblical prophecy and the inerrancy of bible itself. (sola scriptura)
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

  3. #333
    Patron Saint of SMACK Delmar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    If the future is not settled, that puts in jeopardy biblical prophecy and the inerrancy of bible itself. (sola scriptura)
    I don't buy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delmar View Post
    I don't buy it.
    I wasn't selling anything.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delmar View Post
    I don't buy it.

    Spend some food stamps Del

  6. #336
    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    If the future is not settled, that puts in jeopardy my understanding of biblical prophecy and the inerrancy of bible itself. (sola scriptura)
    Yes, very true. Good of you to admit it. If you would like help getting a new understanding, feel free to ask away. It's better than going to great lengths to explain away the obvious meanings of countless passages of the Bible and brings great peace of mind.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

  7. #337
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    [/INDENT]Jerry, it is perfectly comprehensible why you say what you say. You start from the presupposition that God does not experience time (a.k.a. a succession of events) and lo and behold you find all sorts of scriptures that appear to agree with you. That's all it is.

    Your own view is self-defeating because if God is outside of time, then he didn't do anything before anything else. Even if there was a point when time began, God can't have done anything before that point. The very idea that time began is completely nonsensical.
    Then God had a "beginning."

    We can never claim one thing without implying the other.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  8. #338
    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Then God had a "beginning."

    We can never claim one thing without implying the other.
    Nice of you to reply. If you're into belated catchings up, try this one.

    Your conclusion though is absurd. My argument is specific to the premise that time had a beginning.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

  9. #339
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    Nice of you to reply. If you're into belated catchings up, try this one.

    Your conclusion though is absurd.
    Did you 'happen' to realize it was addressed to me?
    I had responded there, this isn't a debate thread persay so I'm simply giving counter thought to certain implications. I don't feel I can respond to your "absurd" and honor theology club where we are discussing rather than debating so I'll ignore it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    My argument is specific to the premise that time had a beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    The very idea that time began is completely nonsensical.
    Then time would be God's god because He could not then have been without a beginning.
    ▼this▼
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Then God had a "beginning."

    We can never claim one thing without implying the other.
    You must understand this, it is fundamental to time and God having no beginning. Measure this line (not segment).

    <--------------------------------------------------------------->

    Equally to drawn segments, time is a segment, not remotely a consideration of forever past/future.

    In order for God to have existed forever (still going into the past by logic and reason)time must necessarily have been a function of creation (there must be a starting place for time to occur or it does not occur/exist).
    Genesis 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  10. #340
    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Did you 'happen' to realize it was addressed to me?
    I had responded there, this isn't a debate thread persay so I'm simply giving counter thought to certain implications. I don't feel I can respond to your "absurd" and honor theology club where we are discussing rather than debating so I'll ignore it.
    Fine by me. I was just wondering if you wanted to carry on that conversation. If you can't or don't wish to respond, it's up to you. I suppose every conversation must end somewhere.

    In order for God to have existed forever (still going into the past by logic and reason)time must necessarily have been a function of creation (there must be a starting place for time to occur or it does not occur/exist).
    You are seriously missing something here, Lon. You haven't understood the problem at all.
    I am arguing that time is not a thing. It is just a concept to help communicate the idea that things happen in sequence. Hence the idea that time began is absurd.
    Time is not a thing. Time is not a dimension. Time cannot be measured.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

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  12. #341
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    Fine by me. I was just wondering if you wanted to carry on that conversation. If you can't or don't wish to respond, it's up to you. I suppose every conversation must end somewhere.
    Yes. At least I want to honoor the tenor here. IntoJoy was kind of complaining that we were hijacking that thread. I'll try and move it to one of the OV time threads.


    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    You are seriously missing something here, Lon. You haven't understood the problem at all.
    Of course we have this between us. It is only my deposit here of good faith and counterpoints to ponder in a classic debate with closing words (mine given here).
    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    I am arguing that time is not a thing. It is just a concept to help communicate the idea that things happen in sequence. Hence the idea that time began is absurd.
    Time is not a thing. Time is not a dimension. Time cannot be measured.
    Actually, I'm not opposed to that, but it only relates to our physical universe. To whatever degree God interacts with His creation, He interacts with time like points that create segments on a line that otherwise has no points nor marks. It is true that we must plot two points in order to discuss which line we are talking of/logically grasping.

    After the same fashion, I don't have a problem with people saying God experiences time, because He does, He interacts with us. The problem will always be where we perceived limitation ends or if we see it at all. Also, because a noun is a person place or thing like a concept, I do believe Time must be a 'thing.'
    Time is the language of measurement of duration. Things are thought 'timeless' because duration has no perceived affect on objects we label as such and it conveys a truth we all understand and agree exists.

    So, food for counterthought and I'll leave it at that: There is such a thing as timelessness that correctly surmises realities.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  13. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    Yes, very true. Good of you to admit it. If you would like help getting a new understanding, feel free to ask away. It's better than going to great lengths to explain away the obvious meanings of countless passages of the Bible and brings great peace of mind.
    Help from you? No thanks. I'll just stick to the Bible.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

  14. #343
    Gold level Subscriber Bob Enyart's Avatar
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    Jerry, Abram, and Abraham

    Hello Jerry! It's helpful that you openly admit (as below) what we think is a powerful argument against timelessness. For if Plato were correct on that doctrine, then because God the Son is today also the Son of Man, that would mean that He was always and throughout eternity past the Son of Man. Thus, man would be co-eternal with God, as would Mary, because He would then also always have been the Son of Mary (Gen 3:15; Lk 3:23).

    Regarding the use of the term Son of Man to refer to Jesus in the past, this is a kind of postdiction. It is common to use current information to discuss the past. Jerry refers to "Abraham" even when he is speaking of early points in his life prior to the Gen. 17:5 change of his name from Abram. As far as I recall, the New Testament never uses Abram (Greek Αβραμ) but only Abraham (Ἀβραάμ) even though it references his earlier years (Gal. 3:6 from Gen. 15; Heb. 7:9 from Gen. 14; etc.). None of this is proof that Abraham's name was always Abraham, nor does referring to Jesus prior to the Incarnation mean that He had always been the Son of Man; had eternally come down from heaven; had eternally humbled Himself; had eternally lowered Himself; had eternally emptied Himself of some of this powers of deity; etc. These are merely instances of referring to the person in the past by a name that He is known by today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Bob argues that God experienced a change in sequence when He became the Son of Man. The problem with this argumentis the fact that the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus was Son of Man before He came to the earth, as witnessed by His own words here:

    "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).

    Here the pronoun "he" must refer to "the Son of Man" so before he came to earth He was in heaven as the Son of Man. The only change that took place was in "time" when He put on a flesh and blood body. We can also see the same teaching here:

    "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).

    The Lord Jesus came down from heaven as the Son of Man. And this should surprise no one, since we read the following about Him:

    "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb.13:8).
    - Bob Enyart

    p.s. For more, see my OT debate at opentheism.org/james-white.
    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

  15. #344
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Enyart View Post
    Hello Jerry! It's helpful that you openly admit (as below) what we think is a powerful argument against timelessness. For if Plato were correct on that doctrine, then because God the Son is today also the Son of Man, that would mean that He was always and throughout eternity past the Son of Man. Thus, man would be co-eternal with God, as would Mary, because He would then also always have been the Son of Mary (Gen 3:15; Lk 3:23).
    Hi Bob,

    You assume that a flesh and blood body is essential to being a "man". But when the Man Jesus Christ ascended into the heavenly kingdom of God He did not enter with a flesh and blood body:

    "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

    The Lord Jesus is now sitting at the right hand of the Father in the heavenly kingdom without a flesh and blood body but despite that fact He remains a Man.

    Regarding the use of the term Son of Man to refer to Jesus in the past, this is a kind of postdiction. It is common to use current information to discuss the past.
    Why would the Lord use the term "Son of Man" if He did not exist as a Man prior to coming to the earth? If He wanted to use what was then current information when speaking of who He was before He came down to the earth He certainly would have used the term "Son of God" instead of the term "Son of Man."

    The only thing which makes sense it the fact that by using the term "Son of Man" He was saying that He existed as both Man and God before He came to earth. And that explains how we are made in the image of God:

    "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea..." (Gen.1:26).

    It takes little imagination to understand who is spoken of here:

    "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" (Gen.3:22).
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; September 17th, 2014 at 08:42 PM.

  16. #345
    Over 1500 post club themuzicman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    If the future is not settled, that puts in jeopardy biblical prophecy and the inerrancy of bible itself. (sola scriptura)
    Only if you don't think God is omnipotent.

    Are you claiming that God is unable to bring about prophecy without determining everything beforehand?
    I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

    2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

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