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Thread: Is the Future Open?

  1. #16
    Over 1500 post club Vaquero45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Peter is only relating the things of God according to man's view. And that is in regard to the fact that "time" is the law of our being.
    Did Peter say that somewhere?


    Because there is more. Before "time" became a part of our experience God existed:

    "He has saved us and called us to a holy lifeónot because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time" (2 Tim. 1:9).



    "in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time" (Titus 1:2).
    See my other post above, it posted slow for some reason. Basically, what does "before the beginning of time" mean?. How does it make sense taken straightly literal?


    Here is Bob Enyart's take on it. I don't know what you think of his teaching but this is pretty straight forward and should be easy to shoot down if he is wrong about the Greek. From the little I've looked into it he seems to be correct.

    Bad Translations: "Before time began" (2 Tim. 1:9 & Titus 1:2) is widely quoted yet in the Greek text of the New Testament there is no verb "began" in the original language. And the singular word "time" does not appear. Instead, Paul wrote, "before the times of the ages," which is very different from the way many of our Bible versions render this phrase, which translations do not flow from the grammar but from on the translators' commitment to Greek philosophy.

    Full article here:
    http://kgov.com/is-God-outside-of-time
    Last edited by Vaquero45; February 24th, 2014 at 07:59 PM. Reason: fixed my quote, derp
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  2. #17
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero45 View Post
    Here is Bob Enyart's take on it. I don't know what you think of his teaching but this is pretty straight forward and should be easy to shoot down if he is wrong about the Greek. From the little I've looked into it he seems to be correct.

    Bad Translations: "Before time began" (2 Tim. 1:9 & Titus 1:2) is widely quoted yet in the Greek text of the New Testament there is no verb "began" in the original language. And the singular word "time" does not appear. Instead, Paul wrote, "before the times of the ages," which is very different from the way many of our Bible versions render this phrase, which translations do not flow from the grammar but from on the translators' commitment to Greek philosophy.
    What can the words "before the times of the ages" mean if it is not referring to "before time began"?

    Does not the word "ages" speak of time? Did time exist before the first age began? I cannot see how it could.

    What interpretation would you put on those words?

    In the article written by Bob Enyart he uses the following argument more than once:

    Most Christian theologians join most of the secular philosophers of the last 2,500 years in saying that God is outside of time. However, if the Scriptures teach that God experiences change in sequence, that would indicate that God is in time. So here is an example of a biblical proof showing that God is in time:

    In the eternal state before the foundation of the world God the Son was not also the SON OF MAN; then He "became" flesh as "the Son of Man" and so the Son remains eternally "the Man Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 2:5).

    Many theologians reject that this statement shows that God is in time. However, the Incarnation has eternally changed God the Son
    .

    Bob argues that God experienced a change in sequence when He became the Son of Man. The problem with this argumentis the fact that the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus was Son of Man before He came to the earth, as witnessed by His own words here:

    "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).

    Here the pronoun "he" must refer to "the Son of Man" so before he came to earth He was in heaven as the Son of Man. The only change that took place was in "time" when He put on a flesh and blood body. We can also see the same teaching here:

    "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).

    The Lord Jesus came down from heaven as the Son of Man. And this should surprise no one, since we read the following about Him:

    "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb.13:8).
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; February 25th, 2014 at 07:44 PM.

  3. #18
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero45 View Post
    How long before the beginning of time? There is no "before the beginning of time".
    God existed in the eternal state, where there is no before or after, but only an ever present now. And He remained in the eternal state even when He created the universe, and within that creation is four dimensions--height, width, depth and time.

    It doesn't compute. We can throw around ideas like God exists outside of time, but there is no rational understanding of what that means, is there?
    We cannot even imagine a state devoid of space, but that too is a part of the creation. Sir Robert Anderson wrote:

    "One of the most popular systems of metaphysics is based upon the fact that certain of our ideas seem to spring from the essential constitution of the mind itself ; and these are not subject to our reason, but, on the contrary, they control it. A superficial thinker might suppose the powers of human imagination to be boundless. He can imagine the sun and moon and stars to disappear from the heavens, and the peopled earth to vanish from beneath his feet, leaving him a solitary unit in boundless space ; but let him try, pursuing still further his madman's dream, to grasp the thought of space itself being annihilated, and his mind, in obedience to some inexorable law, will refuse the conception altogether" (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publishing, 1978], 77).

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    Over 6000 post club intojoy's Avatar
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    When the Messiah came, He was rejected , beaten, crucified.

    Did this happen by accident?

    Did God get caught off guard by this ?

    Or did it go according to how God planned it to go?

    Or did God fail in His first attempt at being the Messiah of Israel?

  5. #20
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    When the Messiah came, He was rejected , beaten, crucified.

    Did this happen by accident?

    Did God get caught off guard by this ?

    Or did it go according to how God planned it to go?

    Or did God fail in His first attempt at being the Messiah of Israel?
    I really do not understand the point in regard to the subject of this thread which you are making.

    Could you please be more specific?

    Thanks!

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I really do not understand the point in regard to the subject of this thread which you are making.



    Could you please be more specific?



    Thanks!

    Yes. You do.

    Don't play dumb.

  7. #22
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    Is the Future Open?

    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    When the Messiah came, He was rejected , beaten, crucified.

    Did this happen by accident? Or did God preplan this to happen?

    Did God get caught off guard by this ? Or was the rejection pre planned?

    Or did it go according to how God planned it to go?

    Or did God fail in His first attempt at being the Messiah of Israel?

    Foreknowledge does not mean to know in advance.

    If God knows everything outside of time, then that means everything is known by Him in the present. God expects us to realize this. That's not news. Therefore, when God tells us that Yeshua's death burial and resurrection was "foreknown" God expects us to fathom that foreknowledge in God's world means preplanning.

    End of threadski Chief ManyBottles

  8. #23
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    If God knows everything outside of time, then that means everything is known by Him in the present. God expects us to realize this.
    So you must agree what Loraine Boettner wrote here:

    "Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).

    Right?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So you must agree what Loraine Boettner wrote here:



    "Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).



    Right?

    No.

    God's knowing is not adequately described by that paragraph.

    Here's how it is; God knows all things past present and future simultaneously at the same time.

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    Over 1500 post club Vaquero45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    God existed in the eternal state, where there is no before or after, but only an ever present now. And He remained in the eternal state even when He created the universe, and within that creation is four dimensions--height, width, depth and time.
    Where/how did you learn this?

    We cannot even imagine a state devoid of space, but that too is a part of the creation. Sir Robert Anderson wrote:

    "One of the most popular systems of metaphysics is based upon the fact that certain of our ideas seem to spring from the essential constitution of the mind itself ; and these are not subject to our reason, but, on the contrary, they control it. A superficial thinker might suppose the powers of human imagination to be boundless. He can imagine the sun and moon and stars to disappear from the heavens, and the peopled earth to vanish from beneath his feet, leaving him a solitary unit in boundless space ; but let him try, pursuing still further his madman's dream, to grasp the thought of space itself being annihilated, and his mind, in obedience to some inexorable law, will refuse the conception altogether" (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publishing, 1978], 77).
    If space exists inside of God, one can fall back on the concept of "only God" existing, but that is still pretty crazy to try to draw a picture of. For some reason I don't trip over the concept of "no space" as badly as "no time", but still, where do we see God creating space?
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  11. #26
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Here's how it is; God knows all things past present and future simultaneously at the same time.
    If God knows all things which will happen in the future and since He cannot be wrong about what he knows, then all human actions will turn out only one way.

    And if this is true then how can people really have a will that can be called a "free will" since the future can turn out only one way?

    Therefore, some argue that man really has no free will since all that will happen has already been determined.

    Is that what you believe?

  12. #27
    Over 1500 post club Vaquero45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    No.

    God's knowing is not adequately described by that paragraph.

    Here's how it is; God knows all things past present and future simultaneously at the same time.
    It seems to me that your statement agrees with the quote Jerry posted?
    Marge: "Aren't you going to give him the last rites?"
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    Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin

  13. #28
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero45 View Post
    Where/how did you learn this?
    I learned that part of the creation is in regard to what is called "spacetime" by Einstein. And since it is an integral part of creation then it must be a created thing, something that did not even exist before God created the universe.

    Plus, in my opinion, 2 Peter 3:8 indicates that God is not constrained by time so therefore He is outside of time.

    If space exists inside of God
    "Did you mean "If space exists OUTSIDE of God"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaquero45 View Post
    It seems to me that your statement agrees with the quote Jerry posted?

    Sort of. The problem is that by adding the "God sees from NY to San Fran", Jerry's Stettin' somethin' up and I can't take that chance with him.
    God does not see from the beginning of that road to the end. He sees it all simultaneously, there's a small difference. Chief MannyBottles is brewing up something. Something sinister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    If God knows all things which will happen in the future and since He cannot be wrong about what he knows, then all human actions will turn out only one way.



    And if this is true then how can people really have a will that can be called a "free will" since the future can turn out only one way?



    Therefore, some argue that man really has no free will since all that will happen has already been determined.



    Is that what you believe?

    Yes.

    And because God saw everything He according to His omnipotence allowed for the fall of man. The fall of man would inevitably lead to the condemnation of all of humanity by imputation. This is why God is not blamed for the lost remaining lost even tho they are born lost. God did not create them for the purpose of condemning them, but God allowed for the fall to happen knowing that the majority of humanity would not be saved. He allowed the fall because He desired to keep you jerry. Isn't that great?

    I think it is and I think you're a great guy, I love you son.

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