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Thread: Discussion thread for AMR and God's Truth Trinity Debate.

  1. #76
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Vinny View Post
    AMR is the champ-peen for the classical, mainstream Trinitarian view of God (accept no substitutes).

    GT is playing the heretic, posing some sort of oneness/modalistic Unitarian God (I think) that inhabited a spiritual body of sorts prior to the Incarnation, and who returned to the spiritual body at the resurrection.

    This makes me want to ask why the scars appeared on the spiritual body. Also makes me think if we lose an appendage down here, our spiritual bodies would also be missing it.
    Instead of my spending this time, correcting you for speaking falseness about me...why, don't you explain in your own words how Jesus existed in heaven as God before coming to earth?

    I am waiting to hear what you have to say.

    I know you will not be able to explain it. So then, how about you show some respect for what I am explaining.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Over 750 post club Brother Vinny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FraterJoseph View Post
    Oh I see and thanks BV
    Trins, they believe God is God Jesus and Holt Spirit all in one..A non created being.

    And Unis say all came from God including Jesus and Holy Spirit.

    And I get the vibe that Trins is the main or popular view, right?seems I see Meshak allways talking bout them.
    Emphasis on always talking.

    The Church decided on the Trinity before a solid canon of Scripture was settled upon. This should tell one how important it was to them.
    "To deny Calvinism is to deny the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    I am no more a modalist than I am a trinitarian.
    Arianism, modalism/Oneness, trinitarianism, polytheism are the main views. There are countless nuanced views that could be plugged under each.

    Arian=views that reduce Christ to creature and often Holy Spirit as impersonal (e.g. JWs, Unitarians, etc.). They are anti-trin, anti-Deity of Christ.

    polytheism=belief in more than one true God (LDS/Mormon, Hinduism).

    monotheism= Judaism, Islam, Christianity (Oneness and Trinitarian), pseudo-Christian cults (JW, Unitarian), etc.

    trinitarianism=one God with 3 personal distinctions, not 3 gods, not 3-headed god (the fact you talk about the latter or even 4 gods shows that you should quit now).

    modalism/Sabellianism/modal monarchianism/Oneness/Jesus only, etc.= anti-trin, monotheistic, Deity of Christ affirming. F, S, HS are not personally distinct, but the same, whether called office, mode, manifestation, all at once, or consecutively.

    GT: If your view does not generically fit any above, you are not being reasonable or are so far out to lunch we should not even entertain it, but lump it in with endless minor views that are not even credible to make a label over.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    See other threads where we have engaged more. I am making observations here since you are the two hashing out the doctrinal dispute on the other thread. This is not the place to usurp your debate in detail.
    That is just like you to speak falseness about me and my beliefs, but then fault me for correcting you and explaining what I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    If so, you should cancel the one-on-one with him and make one for us (not necessary, of course).
    I do not want to cancel the one on one. AMR is showing he cannot defend his doctrine.

    You cannot answer the question I ask all trinitarians and that is how is Jesus God but not the Father who is God, and the Holy Spirit.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Instead of my spending this time, correcting you for speaking falseness about me...why, don't you explain in your own words how Jesus existed in heaven as God before coming to earth?

    I am waiting to hear what you have to say.

    I know you will not be able to explain it. So then, how about you show some respect for what I am explaining.
    Some secrets belong to God alone (see Deut 29:29). Jesus' pre-Incarnate life is among these.

    So, is my wife's deceased uncle, who died a legless believer, gimping around the heavenlies on two spiritual stumps? If not, why not, since Jesus still has His scars?
    "To deny Calvinism is to deny the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Vinny View Post
    Emphasis on always talking.

    The Church decided on the Trinity before a solid canon of Scripture was settled upon. This should tell one how important it was to them.
    The early church had a pre-theoretical, experiential embracing of the triune God. They worshipped Jesus as God, considered the Holy Spirit God/personal, affirmed monotheism, etc. The revelation was progressive from the OT and the nuanced understanding, like other doctrines, growing over time under the Spirit's leading and out of necessity in response to later heretical attacks like Oneness and Arianism. As AMR points out, there were many doctrine of God, Christology, incarnation heresies already dealt with. Most modern ones are rehashes with new twists that fall to the same refutations.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Vinny View Post
    Emphasis on always talking.

    The Church decided on the Trinity before a solid canon of Scripture was settled upon. This should tell one how important it was to them.
    The trinity doctrine came from the Catholics. That should tell you to question it.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    The early church had a pre-theoretical, experiential embracing of the triune God. They worshipped Jesus as God, considered the Holy Spirit God/personal, affirmed monotheism, etc. The revelation was progressive from the OT and the nuanced understanding, like other doctrines, growing over time under the Spirit's leading and out of necessity in response to later heretical attacks like Oneness and Arianism. As AMR points out, there were many doctrine of God, Christology, incarnation heresies already dealt with. Most modern ones are rehashes with new twists that fall to the same refutations.
    You speak a lot of nothing.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    The trinity doctrine came from the Catholics. That should tell you to question it.
    The New Testament canon came later from the same Catholics, but you seem to have no problem citing it as authority.
    "To deny Calvinism is to deny the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Vinny View Post
    Some secrets belong to God alone (see Deut 29:29). Jesus' pre-Incarnate life is among these.

    So, is my wife's deceased uncle, who died a legless believer, gimping around the heavenlies on two spiritual stumps? If not, why not, since Jesus still has His scars?
    Jesus was glorified with his Spiritual body in God's presence.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


    Your wife's deceased uncle is a spirit; he does not yet have his spiritual body.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    That does not make sense what you just said. You are misrepresenting the Oneness doctrine.

    You know you cannot explain your trinity doctrine. In the trinity doctrine, it states that it is unexplainable.
    However, we are to explain our beliefs.

    You are “just sayin’” anything. You do not care if you speak the truth or not.
    The last point AMR made was that it is unexplainable in the sense that we need revelation vs raw reason (same applies to many other truths about God). It also means that the finite cannot exhaustively grasp the infinite. It is not a mystery (no revelation) and we can say much truth about the triune understanding and defend its parameters. The same can be said about the existence of God that we accept. It is unexplainable, but we accept that He is uncreated Creator, contrary to reason, but true because of revelation that is reality. Before the statement you isolate out of context, he gave much detail about the trinity, but you told him to quit giving evidence?!

    You are not reasonable and I think you should be put out of your misery on this debate because there are better champions of your general view (David Bernard is the guy to engage academically, not GT; likewise Anthony Buzzard is the credible guy for Unitarianism, not two bit guys here like oatmeal).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    Over 750 post club Brother Vinny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Jesus was glorified with his Spiritual body in God's presence.

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


    Your wife's deceased uncle is a spirit; he does not yet have his spiritual body.
    But when he gets his spiritual body, will it be legless?

    You basically moved the timing of the issue while dodging the meat of the question. Nice work.
    "To deny Calvinism is to deny the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    That is just like you to speak falseness about me and my beliefs, but then fault me for correcting you and explaining what I believe.


    I do not want to cancel the one on one. AMR is showing he cannot defend his doctrine.

    You cannot answer the question I ask all trinitarians and that is how is Jesus God but not the Father who is God, and the Holy Spirit.
    We have answered this over and over by pointing out nature vs person. You want to muzzle us because you do not understand essence/nature, despite my simple explanations to help you understand. AMR is defending it, but you are too clueless to realize it. Like JWs, you think if we say Jesus is God, then we are saying the Father is God. They don't get this because it is not true (but your false view). The one God (spirit) is not unipersonal, but triune (not tritheistic). The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. This does not mean the Father is the Son since nature and personal distinction are valid truths about God that you reject.

    Those who reject trinity and Deity of Christ end up with nonsensical exegesis. If you read former Oneness people who used to use your arguments who are now trinitarian, you would see that there is more to this than you think. They now argue more strongly for orthodoxy and realize they were misled before (same when JWs, Mormons, Muslims, Moonies, etc. come to see biblical truth vs the lie).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Seems just technical about the spirit form of Jesus after the death and before the accession, Not about the trinity,,about the scars tho, that was before he went to heaven right? He went to Sheol, then talked with disciples, then went to heaven?

    So I wouldn't think he had his glorified body when he showed the scars?
    But all this is again I say highly technical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Vinny View Post
    The New Testament canon came later from the same Catholics, but you seem to have no problem citing it as authority.
    Many think the Catholics determined what books were to be included in the Bible, because they over the centuries publicly listed the books that they used. They gave personal statements about the books, but they were only commenting on the books and letters that the first Christians used from the beginning. They had only acknowledged those books early Christian communities already accepted as scripture.

    Official canonization of the New Testament scriptures came about because of heresies Gnostics and other sects spread. The first Christians accepted as scripture New Testament teachings by letter and books right from the beginning. In 1 Timothy 5:18 Paul joins a New Testament scripture (Luke 10:7) to an Old Testament scripture (Deuteronomy 25:4) and calls them both scripture. In addition, we can see in 2 Peter 3:15-16 Peter recognizes what Paul writes as scripture.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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