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Thread: One-on-One: AMR and God's Truth — The Holy Trinity

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    One-on-One: AMR and God's Truth — The Holy Trinity

    Thank you, Knight for arranging this One-On-One between TOL member God’s Truth and myself! This One-on-One will hopefully provide some edification and, yes, even some entertainment, for interested readers that are taking a break from the start of the holiday season frenzy.

    For some time GT has been making claims and demands that have at their root a view that GT is right and most others are wrong, especially when GT is posting heresies. GT even demands an account be given by others.

    GT’s boldness has increased of late to the point that ignoring GT’s denial of the Trinity is not possible:

    I was minding my own business (ahem) in a recent Trinity thread, pointing out the many heresies denounced by the Chalcedonian Definition, to wit:

    Our Lord was fully God and fully man in an indissoluble union whereby the second person of the Trinity assumed a human nature that cannot be separated, divided, mixed, or confused. One can best understand this hypostatic union (together united in one subsistence and in one single person) by examining what it is not, thus from the process of elimination determine what it must be.

    The hypostatic union is not:

    1. a denial that Christ was truly God (Ebionites, Elkasites, Arians);
    2. a dissimilar or different substance (anomoios) with the Father (semi-Arianism);
    3. a denial that Christ had a genuine human soul (Apollinarians);
    4. a denial of a distinct person in the Trinity (Dynamic Monarchianism);
    5. God acting merely in the forms of the Son and Spirit (Modalistic Monarchianism/Sabellianism/United Pentecostal Church);
    6. a mixture or change when the two natures were united (Eutychianism/Monophysitism);
    7. two distinct persons (Nestorianism);
    8. a denial of the true humanity of Christ (docetism);
    9. a view that God the Son laid aside all or some of His divine attributes (kenoticism);
    10. a view that there was a communication of the attributes between the divine and human natures (Lutheranism, with respect to the Lord's Supper); and
    11. a view that Jesus existed independently as a human before God entered His body (Adoptionism).

    The Chalcedonian Definition is one of the few statements that all of orthodox Christendom recognizes as the most faithful summary of the teachings of the Scriptures on the matter of the Incarnate Christ. The Chalcedonian Definition was the answer to the many heterodoxies identified above during the third century.
    In that same thread GT opined (all emphases added in my quoting of GT in this One-on-One will be my own unless otherwise noted):

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    God made the plan for salvation through Jesus before He created anything. God created the Spiritual body of the Man Jesus before the creation of anything. Jesus is the First and the Last. The Spiritual body of Jesus is the kind of body we will receive at the resurrection. God created everything through Jesus, for him, by him, and through him. Jesus was the visible of the invisible God before the creation of the world, and Jesus was the visible of the invisible God in human form on earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    There is only One God---and He is the Father. God came as a Son of God, a Son of Man.

    God is Spirit.
    Jesus is Spirit.
    The Holy Spirit is Spirit.

    There is only One Spirit.

    There are three, and the three are One and the same.


    See Ephesians 4:4, and Ephesians 2:18.

    The trinity doctrine is false because it says Jesus is God, but not the Father who is God, and the Holy Spirit who is God.

    The trinity doctrine says there is One God the Father, and another God Jesus, and yet another God called the Holy Spirit. That makes three different Gods that makes a three –headed god.
    I called attention to GT’s errors, especially related to the “three-headed god” bit above, by noting

    1. There is in the divine Being but one indivisible essence (ousia, essential), see Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4, Galatians 3:20, 1 Timothy 2:5.
    2. In this one divine Being there are three personal distinctions (what the church calls persons), or individual subsistences, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, see Genesis 1:1, 26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1, Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14.
    3. The whole undivided essence of God belongs equally to each of the three persons, see John 6:27, Romans 1:7, 1 Peter 1:2, John 1:1, 14, Romans 9:5, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8, 1 John 5:20, Acts 5:3-4, 1 Corinthians 3:16.
    4. The subsistence and operation of the three persons in the divine Being is marked by a certain definite order, see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, 1 John 4:14, John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, John 16:13-14.
    5. There are certain personal attributes by which the three persons are distinguished, see 1 Corinthians 8:6, Revelation 4:11, Revelation 1:1, John 3:16-17, 1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:1, 16:12-15, Matthew 11:27, Revelation 1:1, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Matthew 1:21, John 4:42, Genesis 1:2, Job 26:13, Psalm 104:30, John 16:12-15, Ephesians 3:5, 2 Peter 1:21, John 3:6, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 1:2, Isaiah 61:1, Acts 10:38.
    6. The church confesses the Trinity to be a mystery beyond the comprehension of man (Romans 11:33-34).

    In the remainder of the thread I challenged GT to this One-on-One, which was accepted. GT then wished to impose conditions, generally that I do not treat GT badly, and that I should really, really, really, post first in the thread despite my offering GT the first post advantage.

    With that background, the purpose of this One-on-One is to discuss the Trinity. In particular, I will be affirming the orthodox Christian view and challenging GT to support what can only be described as an amalgamation of Mormonism, Gnosticism, and Monarchianism underlying GT’s views of the Trinity (see GT’s own words above and elsewhere).

    A representative overview of the Trinity can be seen from the pix below:
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=1886

    I have no intention of treating GT gently on this topic. It is of utmost importance to one’s eternal destiny. In my view anyone who declares themselves a teacher of others—after having been properly instructed on important matters of the faith—who then continues to teach a view contrary to Scripture is a false teacher of the worst kind. Furthermore, anyone who denies the Trinitarian nature of the Godhead is outside the bounds of orthodoxy with no rightful claim to calling themselves “Christian”. GT has amassed over eleven thousand posts since joining TOL a short fifteen months or so ago. A significant portion of those posts resemble the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    I am no more a modalist than I am a trinitarian. The trinity doctrine is not in the scriptures. Explain how Jesus is God but not the Father who is God.

    You reject God’s Truth. THE SCRIPTURES says the LORD IS THE SPIRIT.

    Why do you go against the written Word of God?

    2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

    There is ONLY ONE GOD. IF JESUS IS GOD, AND HE IS, then he is ALSO the FATHER, and the HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS ALSO GOD.

    Stop bringing in the JW’s. You are so desperate. The JW’s do not believe Jesus is God.

    You are lying. You are lying just to defend and protect the lie you believe in.

    You are acting ignorant.

    Tell me the ways in which Jesus is different from the Father and the Holy Spirit! YOU say they are NOT the same and that they are different. YOU BELIEVE AND TEACH FALSENESS.
    Clearly, GT denies the Trinity and spends much time attempting to spread this damnable heresy to others. Yet when asked to fully state a position, GT waffles. Hopefully in this One-on-One, GT will finally take the time to give a more complete picture of these peculiar views.

    Given the complexity of the topic, I will begin simply.

    GT, you have stated, God created the Spiritual body of the Man Jesus before the creation of anything andthat the Spiritual body of Jesus is the kind of body we will receive at the resurrection .

    Does this statement mean that you, GT, believe the glorified body now possessed by Jesus Christ in heaven pre-existed the Incarnation?

    If this is not what you mean, then please explain the statement.


    GT, a few months ago you wrote to me:

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    You do not debate me because you know you will lose.
    Well, here at last is your chance to put some teeth into that bravado.

    I will await your response that will perhaps include some substantive content outlining your full position on the nature of the Triune Godhead.

    AMR
    Last edited by Ask Mr. Religion; November 30th, 2013 at 11:35 PM.
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    First, I would like to clear up some untruths that you stated about me.

    I do not “waffle” from stating my position, as you stated. You should be more careful in what you claim others are doing. This leads me to ask you, please keep out your personal assessment of me during this one on one. I am not here to read what you think I am doing or what I am thinking. I also do not want to spend time reading what you think of me personally. I am not here to be judged by you. Call my beliefs false to your heart’s desire, but refrain from calling me names such ‘fool’, or anything else.

    Another important point, please leave out all the other beliefs and doctrines; I am not here to read through a long post by you speaking about the Ebionites, Elkasites, Arians, semi-Arians, Apollinarians, dynamic Manarchianists, Modalists, Sabellians, Eutychianism, Monophysistism, Eutiychianists, Monophysitism, Nestroianists, docetism, kenoticism, Lutheranism, and Adoptionism.

    I do want to say that I am glad that you asked me to this one-on-one.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post

    Given the complexity of the topic, I will begin simply.

    GT, you have stated, God created the Spiritual body of the Man Jesus before the creation of anything andthat the Spiritual body of Jesus is the kind of body we will receive at the resurrection .

    Does this statement mean that you, GT, believe the glorified body now possessed by Jesus Christ in heaven pre-existed the Incarnation?
    The scriptures say Jesus was the firstborn over all creation; he created all things. The spiritual body is glorious, and Jesus was glorified with the same glorious body he had with God before coming to earth. It is the same kind of body our immortal physical bodies will be changed into, at the resurrection.


    Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    1 Corinthians 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

    1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

    1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

    Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    I asked a pointed question to GT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    GT, you have stated, God created the Spiritual body of the Man Jesus before the creation of anything and that the Spiritual body of Jesus is the kind of body we will receive at the resurrection .

    Does this statement mean that you, GT, believe the glorified body now possessed by Jesus Christ in heaven pre-existed the Incarnation?

    If this is not what you mean, then please explain the statement.
    In response, GT offers:

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    The scriptures say Jesus was the firstborn over all creation; he created all things. The spiritual body is glorious, and Jesus was glorified with the same glorious body he had with God before coming to earth. It is the same kind of body our immortal physical bodies will be changed into, at the resurrection.
    GT, again I ask, are you stating that the glorified body Jesus Christ now possesses pre-existed the Incarnation? It appears from your answer that I have underlined that you would answer my question with a “yes”. Am I correct?

    GT, you then posted several verses of Scripture with some highlighted portions. Is this what I am to expect for your exegesis of Scripture? Highlighting and boldfacing of Scripture is not exegesis. Of course I believe all Scripture to be truth, so merely quoting it to me serves no purpose in defense of your position until and unless you are able to properly interpret that which you are quoting.

    Finally, I can assure you that I will read all of the contents of your post rather than just wave them off unread only to press onward with pat answers to complex questions. I want to understand your position once you make it more plain for examination. You have my full attention in this One-on-One, which is the advantage of this venue.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I asked a pointed question to GT:



    In response, GT offers:



    GT, again I ask, are you stating that the glorified body Jesus Christ now possesses pre-existed the Incarnation? It appears from your answer that I have underlined that you would answer my question with a “yes”. Am I correct?

    GT, you then posted several verses of Scripture with some highlighted portions. Is this what I am to expect for your exegesis of Scripture? Highlighting and boldfacing of Scripture is not exegesis. Of course I believe all Scripture to be truth, so merely quoting it to me serves no purpose in defense of your position until and unless you are able to properly interpret that which you are quoting.

    Finally, I can assure you that I will read all of the contents of your post rather than just wave them off and press onward with pat answers to complex questions. I am seriously worried that you do not take this topic very seriously if you can exhibit such flippancy to what I have written.

    AMR
    I have stated my beliefs, and have given the scriptures to prove my beliefs.
    You just cannot go against the truth so you merely pretend it is not there.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    GT,

    Can you please provide a direct answer to my latest question so I am not to misunderstand what you have written?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    GT, again I ask, are you stating that the glorified body Jesus Christ now possesses pre-existed the Incarnation? It appears from your answer that I have underlined that you would answer my question with a “yes”. Am I correct?


    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    GT,

    Can you please provide a direct answer to my latest question so I am not to misunderstand what you have written?
    Jesus existed in the Spiritual body of the Man Jesus before the creation of anything.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    I normally don't interrupt One on One threads but just an FYI I have setup a discussion thread here so the rest of TOL can talk about this interesting debate.
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    Thank you Knight for setting up the parallel discussion forum!

    And, GT, thank you for confirming I was properly interpreting your previous response:

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Jesus existed in the Spiritual body of the Man Jesus before the creation of anything.
    And that spiritual body, according GT, is
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    …the kind of body we will receive at the resurrection.
    Sadly, your view, GT, is not a new one. Please click the spoiler button below and read further:

    Spoiler

    In an effort to satisfy the accusations of Jews who denounced the notion of three Gods (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) as polytheistic, and at the same time incorporate ancient but appealing Greek philosophical concepts of an all-powerful moving force in the universe, the Christian church began to redefine the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One classic work describes the intersection of Christian theology and Greek philosophy: “It is impossible for any one, whether he be a student of history or no, to fail to notice a difference of both form and content between the sermons on the Mount and the Nicene Creed. … The one belongs to a world of Syrian peasants, the other to a world of Greek philosophers. … The religion which our Lord preached ... took the Jewish conception of a Father in heaven, and gave it a new meaning.” In short, “Greek Christianity of the fourth century was rooted in Hellenism. The Greek minds which had been ripening for Christianity had absorbed new ideas and new motives.”

    What is the result? Such Platonic concepts as the immutability, impassibility and timelessness of God made their way into Christian theology. As one group of Evangelical scholars has stated: “Many Christians experience an inconsistency between their beliefs about the nature of God and their religious practice. For example, people who believe that God cannot change his mind sometimes pray in ways that would require God to do exactly that. And Christians who make use of the free will defense for the problem of evil sometimes ask God to get them a job or a spouse, or keep them from being harmed, implying that God should override the free will of others in order to achieve these ends. ...

    “These inharmonious elements are the result of the coupling of biblical ideas about God with notions of the divine nature drawn from Greek thought. The inevitable encounter between biblical and classical thought in the early church generated many significant insights and helped Christianity evangelize pagan thought and culture. Along with the good, however, came a certain theological virus that infected the Christian doctrine of God, making it ill and creating the sorts of problems mentioned above. The virus so permeates Christian theology that some have come to take the illness for granted, attributing it to divine mystery, while others remain unaware of the infection altogether.”

    I suspect there are not a few, especially the open theist and GT, when reading the spoiler above that would feel themselves resonating with the words contained therein. And no wonder, given that the second quotation being used above is from Clark Pinnock, Richard Rice, John Sanders, William Hasker and David Basinger, from the book, The Openness of God: A Biblical Challenge to the Traditional Understanding of God (Downer Grove, Illinois: Intervarsity Press, 1994), 9–10.

    Let’s see what else the writer of the above has to say. The author of the content above, goes on to say:
    Latter-day Saints believe that the simplest reading of the New Testament text produces the simplest conclusion — that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are separate and distinct personages, that They are one in purpose. We feel that the sheer preponderance of references in the Bible would lead an uninformed reader to the understanding that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are separate beings. That is, one must look to the third- and fourth-century Christian church, not to the New Testament itself, to make a strong case for the Trinity.

    God is an exalted man , that He is a separate and distinct personage from the Son and the Holy Ghost.
    Yes, you read the above correctly. The view GT clings to, that Jesus pre-existed the Incarnation in a spiritual body, a glorified body that we are all promised one day, that the early history of the church capitulated to Hellenistic thought, is part and parcel Mormonism. I mean, if the former Dean of BYU, the author of the above content, says so, it must be true, no?

    At this point, GT will complain loudly that no labels can be attached to GT’s views. In fact, GT wants to avoid any such discussion, but this is an impossibility given the nature of the topic before us. The chronological snobbery of modern era church folk would have us believe that they have a “new” truth, or a “refined” vie of Scripture that has escaped the scrutiny of the Lord’s church over the centuries. Yet, as my opening post demonstrated, these “new” or “refined” views are nothing more than heresies denounced by the church councils of yesteryear. Nevertheless, every few years or so, another so-called “new” view or “new” perspective pops up and the church is once again required to speak, denouncing heresy and protecting the faith that we hold dear. Such is the wonderful providence of God—heresy arises—the church denounces it—the faithful persevere to the end.

    In my next post I will turn my attention to what the Scriptures have to say about the Triune Godhead.
    Last edited by Ask Mr. Religion; November 30th, 2013 at 11:33 PM.
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    I am making my next post in haste to avoid GT’s inevitable lachrymose complaints about how GT is being treated.

    Concerning our One-on-One, GT writes:
    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    I am so excited. Thank you for getting this whole thing going.
    I can only hope GT’s excitement includes an enthusiasm for explaining in detail GT’s position for closer examination. To date, all we have to examine are some very sparse assertions.

    The Trinity is often explained by the use of a learning aid device, as shown in the picture illustrating how to think about the Triune Godhead at the following link:
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=1889
    [Note: Apparently One-on-One forums do not allow attachments to be uploaded into posts.]

    Of the Triune Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the figure basically illustrates:
    1. the Father is God,
    2. the Son is God,
    3. the Holy Spirit is God,
    4. the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit,
    5. the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit,
    6. the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son, and
    7. they are not three gods, but one God.

    Church creeds and confessions contain similar expresssions of the Triune Godhead. One of the best is the Athanasian Creed. You can read it here.

    Some may ask, “Why is the doctrine of the Trinity even necessary?

    Point 1:
    In Scripture we find monotheism, e.g., the Shema from Deuteronomy 6:4, “The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” See also Isaiah 44:6; Isaiah 45:5; Ephesians 4:5-6; 1 Timothy 2:5. That the Scriptures insist God is one cannot be more plainly stated.

    Point 2:
    In Scripture we find more than one being called God. In fact, our Lord required baptism to be performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). The Holy Spirit was called God, for the Apostle Peter knew that lying to the Holy Spirit was in fact lying to God (Acts 5:3-4). Our Lord was called God ((John 20:28-31; Romans 9:5; Philippians 2:11). In 2 Corinthians 13:14, we find the equal pronouncement of the three names of the one God in the benediction “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.”

    Answer:
    The answer to the question “Why is the doctrine of the Trinity even necessary?” is that Scripture demands it be so for there is an obvious more than just oneness to the one God—there is a plurality in the oneness of God. Furthermore, this plurality in the oneness of God is not merely some plurality of attributes or functions, but in how this plurality relates to one another. From Scripture we see communion, fellowship, love, and more existing between this plurality. The doctrine of the Trinity is an indiscoverable truth by natural reason. Attempts to draw triad-like analogies from nature and metaphysics to describe the Trinity will always fail. The doctrine of the Trinity is a purely revealed doctrine and the God who is to be worshipped must be worshipped along Trinitarian parameters. This revealed truth shows its self-consistency when we observe that once a believer embraces this truth and its consistency with other known truth, the negative service of reason to faith makes the Trinity the only adequate conception of God. Is there no wonder, then, that Christian theism is the most stable theism?

    The relationship of the three to the one and the three to each other are not the topics of philosophical discussion. Rather they are the topics of the Scriptures. If Jesus was less than fully God then He must not be worshipped, if Jesus is a different God then we have two Gods and then Muslims and Jews are right to accuse the Christian of being polytheists.

    The doctrine of the Trinity is not just a New Testament concept. In fact, the New Testament’s teachings are not of a trinity in the making, but one that is presupposed, accepted, and only perfect, extend and enlarge that which we find in the Old Testament. You will not find the New Testament writers debating or proving the doctrine as you would in the Apostle’s sinfulness of man arguments presented in Romans 1-4. The fact that the New Testament writers are all converted Jews (hardcore monotheists) makes this all the more remarkable!

    The Old Testament teaches us of the Triune Godhead. The Elohim (“Lord”) of the Old Testament is a Hebrew plural noun. The New Testament shines the light on the Old Testament wherein from John 1 we find that the us in Genesis 1 is the Father and the Son. In Genesis 16:10 the angel of the Lord in Genesis 16:10 is God. We find other theophanies in the Old Testament, e.g., Genesis 22:17, 48:16. I am personally convinced that we find the plurality of the one God described in Psalm 33:6 (emphasis mine):
    By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
    And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.
    Similarly, see Isaiah 61:1; 63:9-12; Haggai 2:5, 6 and Proverbs 8 where the personification of wisdom corresponds well with our Lord 1 Corinthians 1:24. The divinity of the promised Messiah is never in question in the Old Testament, for example, Genesis 19:24; Psalm 45:6-7; 110:1; Daniel 7:13-14; Isaiah 48:6-7; Hosea 1:6-7; Zechariah; 3:2; Malachi 3:1-2.

    In the New Testament, the salvific experience reveals the Trinity. From Ephesians 1 we find the agencies of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at work in predestination (Ephesians 1:3), redemption (Ephesians 1:7), and sealing (Ephesians 1:13), respectively. More could be cited, but the Trinity as a doctrine arises never more needed than as a consequence of the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Recall my earlier argument that we cannot have multiple Gods, so the deity of our Lord means there is a plurality of the oneness of God that must be considered.

    For example, consider the titles of our Lord that ascribe deity to Him.
    1. Our Lord is Theos (John 1:1; John 1:18; John 20:28; Acts 20:28; Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1).
    2. Our Lord is Kuios (Acts 9:42; Matthew 22:41-44; Mark 1:2; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 12:3; 16:22; James 1:2; 2:1; Philippians 2:10.
    3. Our Lord’s preferred self-designation was Son of Man. This was not the title of His humanity. Here Jesus reminds us who He really is, the Son of Man in Daniel 7. Jesus reminds us I am that Son of Man.

    The plain facts of history are that Jesus saw himself as divine and the first Christians and early church believed He was divine. The calling of the divinity of Jesus into question was but one of the so-called “new” or “refined” heresies I spoke about in a previous post.

    Note that, in support of the argument of the divinity of our Lord, I did not bother to call attention to the wonderful I AM verses, e.g., John 8:58, from Scripture, nor the verses wherein our Lord states his co-eternality in the divine perfection, e.g., John 17. Nor did I call attention to how our Lord used the Son of God in a Semitic manner such that it was clear to the Jews around him that He was not merely claiming some inferior position, but was in fact equal to God (John 5:18), even just “God” (John 10:33). Rather than play into the hands of those that would cavil about the meaning of these verses endlessly, I choose to rely upon plenty of other evidences from Scripture to make my point and disarm those that would choose to “ready, fire, aim” rather than devote themselves studiously to my arguments.

    From Scripture we should now begin to see that our God is no mere abstract monad and cannot be anything but Triune. For an interesting and compelling argument on the necessity that God be Triune, see St. Victor’s De Trinitate. B. B. Warfield draws upon Victor when arguing the perfect love of God would require a Trinity, to wit: “The best love cannot, however, confine itself to these two persons; it must become condilectio by the desire that a third should be equally loved as they love one another.” Portions of De Trinitate are available here.

    GT, as you can see, I am meeting you fairly in this discussion. I am not unwilling to carry the freight of this discussion in hopes that you may learn from it. Yet, I look forward to your responses in the hopes that you will now take up your burden to substantively present your arguments for your denial of these wonderful Trinitarian truths.

    AMR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    And that spiritual body, according GT, is
    Sadly, your view, GT, is not a new one. Please click the spoiler button below and read further:
    I do not care to read about what other people believe. This thread is about you and me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    I suspect there are not a few, especially the open theist and GT, when reading the spoiler above that would feel themselves resonating with the words contained therein. And no wonder, given that the second quotation being used above is from Clark Pinnock, Richard Rice, John Sanders, William Hasker and David Basinger, from the book, The Openness of God: A Biblical Challenge to the Traditional Understanding of God (Downer Grove, Illinois: Intervarsity Press, 1994), 9–10.
    I have asked you from the beginning not to cloud this one on one with the doctrines and beliefs of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post

    Let’s see what else the writer of the above has to say. The author of the content above, goes on to say:
    Latter-day Saints believe that the simplest reading of the New Testament text produces the simplest conclusion — that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are separate and distinct personages, that They are one in purpose. We feel that the sheer preponderance of references in the Bible would lead an uninformed reader to the understanding that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are separate beings. That is, one must look to the third- and fourth-century Christian church, not to the New Testament itself, to make a strong case for the Trinity.

    … God is an exalted man , that He is a separate and distinct personage from the Son and the Holy Ghost.
    Yes, you read the above correctly. The view GT clings to, that Jesus pre-existed the Incarnation in a spiritual body, a glorified body that we are all promised one day, that the early history of the church capitulated to Hellenistic thought, is part and parcel Mormonism. I mean, if the former Dean of BYU, the author of the above content, says so, it must be true, no?
    If you do not debate in an honest way, you will forfeit by default. Mormons do not believe that Jesus is God. I know that Jesus is God. I ask you again to stop derailing this debate and carrying on with long posts about things that are not related to our discussion.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  16. #12
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    Your response is no response, GT. I have taken pains to present my position in detail. Where is the same from you?

    I await something other than your complaints to examine.

    You claim you can teach me something. Please proceed. Perhaps you can start by stating in detail your view of the nature of the Godhead. Then the discussion will proceed accordingly. Otherwise it will continue to be one-sided wherein I present substantive content in support of my position while you just complain about having to read more than the usual snippet drivel you post all over this site.

    A One-on-One is not just drive-by posting. You need to dig in, stand still, genuinely interact with your opponent's content, and contribute at length. When is that going to happen, if ever?

    AMR
    Last edited by Ask Mr. Religion; November 30th, 2013 at 11:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    The Trinity is often explained by the use of a learning aid device, as shown in the picture illustrating how to think about the Triune Godhead at the following link:
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?b=1889
    [Note: Apparently One-on-One forums do not allow attachments to be uploaded into posts.]
    That trinity doctrine “picture” proves that the trinity doctrine makes a three-headed god, or even four gods. That trinity diagram is not explainable, and therefore cannot be defended against the truth that I said about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Of the Triune Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the figure basically illustrates:
    1. the Father is God,
    2. the Son is God,
    3. the Holy Spirit is God,
    4. the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit,
    5. the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit,
    6. the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son, and
    7. they are not three gods, but one God.
    If Jesus is God, and he is, then he must also be the Father who is God, also the Holy Spirit.

    You have not explained how Jesus is God but not the Father and the Holy Spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Church creeds and confessions contain similar expresssions of the Triune Godhead. One of the best is the Athanasian Creed. You can read it here.

    Some may ask, “Why is the doctrine of the Trinity even necessary?”

    Point 1:
    In Scripture we find monotheism, e.g., the Shema from Deuteronomy 6:4, “The Lord our God, the Lord is one!” See also Isaiah 44:6; Isaiah 45:5; Ephesians 4:5-6; 1 Timothy 2:5. That the Scriptures insist God is one cannot be more plainly stated.

    Point 2:
    In Scripture we find more than one being called God. In fact, our Lord required baptism to be performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). The Holy Spirit was called God, for the Apostle Peter knew that lying to the Holy Spirit was in fact lying to God (Acts 5:3-4). Our Lord was called God ((John 20:28-31; Romans 9:5; Philippians 2:11). In 2 Corinthians 13:14, we find the equal pronouncement of the three names of the one God in the benediction “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.”

    Answer:
    The answer to the question “Why is the doctrine of the Trinity even necessary?” is that Scripture demands it be so for there is an obvious more than just oneness to the one God—there is a plurality in the oneness of God. Furthermore, this plurality in the oneness of God is not merely some plurality of attributes or functions, but in how this plurality relates to one another. From Scripture we see communion, fellowship, love, and more existing between this plurality. The doctrine of the Trinity is an indiscoverable truth by natural reason. Attempts to draw triad-like analogies from nature and metaphysics to describe the Trinity will always fail. The doctrine of the Trinity is a purely revealed doctrine and the God who is to be worshipped must be worshipped along Trinitarian parameters. This revealed truth shows its self-consistency when we observe that once a believer embraces this truth and its consistency with other know truth, the negative service of reason to faith makes the Trinity the only adequate conception of God. Is there no wonder, then, that Christian theism is the most stable theism?

    The relationship of the three to the one and the three to each other are not the topics of philosophical discussion. Rather they are the topics of the Scriptures. If Jesus was less than fully God then He must not be worshipped, if Jesus is a different God then we have two Gods and then Muslims and Jews are right to accuse the Christian of being polytheists.

    The doctrine of the Trinity is not just a New Testament concept. In fact, the New Testament’s teachings are not of a trinity in the making, but one that is presupposed, accepted, and only perfect, extend and enlarge that which we find in the Old Testament. You will not find the New Testament writers debating or proving the doctrine as you would in the Apostle’s sinfulness of man arguments presented in Romans 1-4. The fact that the New Testament writers are all converted Jews (hardcore monotheists) makes this all the more remarkable!

    The Old Testament teaches us of the Triune Godhead. The Elohim (“Lord”) of the Old Testament is a Hebrew plural noun. The New Testament shines the light on the Old Testament wherein from John 1 we find that the us in Genesis 1 is the Father and the Son. In Genesis 16:10 the angel of the Lord in Genesis 16:10 is God. We find other theophanies in the Old Testament, e.g., Genesis 22:17, 48:16. I am personally convinced that we find the plurality of the one God described in Psalm 33:6 (emphasis mine):
    By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
    And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.
    Similarly, see Isaiah 61:1; 63:9-12; Haggai 2:5, 6 and Proverbs 8 where the personification of wisdom corresponds well with our Lord 1 Corinthians 1:24. The divinity of the promised Messiah is never in question in the Old Testament, for example, Genesis 19:24; Psalm 45:6-7; 110:1; Daniel 7:13-14; Isaiah 48:6-7; Hosea 1:6-7; Zechariah; 3:2; Malachi 3:1-2.

    In the New Testament, the salvific experience reveals the Trinity. From Ephesians 1 we find the agencies of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at work in predestination (Ephesians 1:3), redemption (Ephesians 1:7), and sealing (Ephesians 1:13), respectively. More could be cited, but the Trinity as a doctrine arises never more needed than as a consequence of the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Recall my earlier argument that we cannot have multiple Gods, so the deity of our Lord means there is a plurality of the oneness of God that must be considered.

    For example, consider the titles of our Lord that ascribe deity to Him.
    1. Our Lord is Theos (John 1:1; John 1:18; John 20:28; Acts 20:28; Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1).
    2. Our Lord is Kuios (Acts 9:42; Matthew 22:41-44; Mark 1:2; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 12:3; 16:22; James 1:2; 2:1; Philippians 2:10.
    3. Our Lord’s preferred self-designation was Son of Man. This was not the title of His humanity. Here Jesus reminds us who He really is, the Son of Man in Daniel 7. Jesus reminds us I am that Son of Man.

    The plain facts of history are that Jesus saw himself as divine and the first Christians and early church believed He was divine. The calling of the divinity of Jesus into question was but one of the so-called “new” or “refined” heresies I spoke about in a previous post.

    Note that, in support of the argument of the divinity of our Lord, I did not bother to call attention to the wonderful I AM verses, e.g., John 8:58, from Scripture, nor the verses wherein our Lord states his co-eternality in the divine perfection, e.g., John 17. Nor did I call attention to how our Lord used the Son of God in a Semitic manner such that it was clear to the Jews around him that He was not merely claiming some inferior position, but was in fact equal to God (John 5:18), even just “God” (John 10:33). Rather than play into the hands of those that would cavil about the meaning of these verses endlessly, I choose to rely upon plenty of other evidences from Scripture to make my point and disarm those that would choose to “ready, fire, aim” rather than devote themselves studiously to my arguments.

    From Scripture we should now begin to see that our God is no mere abstract monad and cannot be anything but Triune. For an interesting and compelling argument on the necessity that God be Triune, see St. Victor’s De Trinitate. B. B. Warfield draws upon Victor when arguing the perfect love of God would require a Trinity, to wit: “The best love cannot, however, confine itself to these two persons; it must become condilectio by the desire that a third should be equally loved as they love one another.” Portions of De Trinitate are available here.

    GT, as you can see, I am meeting you fairly in this discussion. I am unafraid to carry the freight of this discussion in hopes that you may learn from it. Yet, I look forward to your responses in the hopes that you will now take up your burden to substantively present your arguments for your denial of these wonderful Trinitarian truths.
    Please keep your posts shorter. I have not read anything that you posted right here. Having me read this is not debating and discussing. You also did not reply to my post explaining my beliefs and the scriptures I gave.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  18. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    Your response is no response, GT. I have taken pains to present my position in detail. Where is the same from you?

    I await something other than your thin skinned whining to examine.

    You claim you can teach me something. Please proceed. Perhaps you can start by stating in detail your view of the nature of the Godhead. Then the discussion will proceed accordingly. Otherwise it will continue to be one-sided wherein I present substantive content in support of my position while you just complain about having to read more than the usual snippet drivel you post all over this site.

    A One-on-One is not just drive-by posting. You need to dig in, stand still, genuinely interact with your opponent's content, and contribute at length. When is that going to happen, if ever?
    I am asking you to debate what I have said so far.

    You need to start replying to what I posted:


    The scriptures say Jesus was the firstborn over all creation; he created all things. The spiritual body is glorious, and Jesus was glorified with the same glorious body he had with God before coming to earth. It is the same kind of body our immortal physical bodies will be changed into, at the resurrection.


    Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    1 Corinthians 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

    1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

    1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

    Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body

    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


    Try to prove the scriptures do not say what I believe they say. Start answering the questions that I do ask you.

    Here are the questions again:


    If Jesus is God, and he is, then he must also be the Father who is God, also the Holy Spirit.

    You have not explained how Jesus is God but not the Father and the Holy Spirit.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

  19. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    If Jesus is God, and he is, then he must also be the Father who is God, also the Holy Spirit.

    You have not explained how Jesus is God but not the Father and the Holy Spirit.
    I will be happy to do so. Stay tuned.

    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    Please keep your posts shorter. I have not read anything that you posted right here. Having me read this is not debating and discussing. You also did not reply to my post explaining my beliefs and the scriptures I gave.
    Given your request for explanation and your unwillingness to read my responses one does wonder how you intend to be open to correction.

    This topic is not one that lends itself to snippets and sound bytes. If you do not want to read what I have to say on the topic that is to your own destruction. Nevertheless I will press onward in hopes that you will reconsider your intellectual laziness about such an important topic. I asked you sincerely to teach me what you believe to be the truth. You have not offered anything of substance to support your view. Quoting Scripture here and there and then declaring you have met your burden is simply not sufficient.

    Please show yourself worthy of that which you believe by contributing more than pithy statements in this thread.

    AMR
    Last edited by Ask Mr. Religion; November 30th, 2013 at 11:30 PM.
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