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Thread: Total Depravity

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    Total depravity does not mean that every man is as evil as he can be.
    That's a bit of a straw man argument as I hardly think any OVer believes this. As to the Arminians. they can speak for themselves.

    The Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is nonetheless completely wrong, just as all the 5 points are.

    Total depravity teaches that man is unable to seek God, excepting those individuals whom God predestined to do so and gave the necessary grace.

    When we point out such scriptures as Deut 4:29 or Jer 29:13 or Acts 17:27, illustrating basic principles that man should seek God and God is willing to be found by man, the reply is usually that this only applies to those whom God has predestined. Which is not a trifle disingenuous on God's part if it is true. After all, why would God say that he is willing to be found when he in effect has already chosen them?

    But praise the Lord that everyone can read the Bible and see for themselves the obvious and fair principle that God is willing to be found by anyone who seeks him. This aspect of God's character glorifies God because it shows God is fair and generous. The idea that God is only willing to be found by those who he selected in advance in itself is bad enough but to then go around telling people that all they have to do is seek him with all their heart is the pits.

    Total depravity had to be invented to support predestination so that Calvinists could say that everyone deserved damnation anyway. I have often said (see my signature on irresistible damnation) that in Calvinism, the vast majority of humanity cannot by any means whatsoever obtain salvation and the unique response I have received from Calvinists is that none of these people would ever want to be saved anyway. Is it just me or did I really a moment ago hear Calvinists proclaiming that our wills are not determinative of our eternal destiny? And yet here they are backtracking to get themselves out of trouble by elevating the role of the human will to a core pillar of their doctrine! Because they don't want to be saved, it makes their damnation right.

    I really hope it isn't just me who can see the hypocrisy in this position.
    Last edited by Desert Reign; October 22nd, 2013 at 06:28 AM.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

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    If total depravity exists, then by deduction partial depravity exists too. So put sin on a continuum from totally depraved on the left to totally righteous on the right. My Bible tells me that God is totally righteous and that all men falls short of God’s glory somewhere to the left.

    Calvinists make Man totally depraved (all the way to the left) and make God responsible for everything else – even the cesspool of filth right next to “total depravity.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    This verse shows that there is no such thing as total depravity.

    Matthew 7:11 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

    We would have to be totally absent from the presence of God all around us, in order to be totally depraved.
    Total depravity does not teach that every person is as evil as he can be in every situation, that would be ridiculous. What it teaches is that outside of Christ it is impossible to please God, and that evil permeates every part of his being.

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    Over 750 post club Dialogos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    This verse shows that there is no such thing as total depravity.

    Matthew 7:11 11"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

    We would have to be totally absent from the presence of God all around us, in order to be totally depraved.
    [/quote]
    You demonstrate that you don't understand the doctrine of total depravity with these comments.


    Total depravity doesn't mean that man is as bad as he could possibly be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    That's a bit of a straw man argument as I hardly think any OVer believes this. As to the Arminians. they can speak for themselves.
    Many have misrepresented the doctrine of Total Depravity and it’s clear that even those who are posting here haven’t taken the time to really investigate what this doctrine says and instead argue against a misrepresentation of Total Depravity.

    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    The Calvinistic doctrine of total depravity is nonetheless completely wrong, just as all the 5 points are.

    Total depravity teaches that man is unable to seek God, excepting those individuals whom God predestined to do so and gave the necessary grace.
    Not even this is a fair treatment of the doctrine. Total depravity teaches that man is universally unable/unwilling to seek God. God’s sovereign election is the basis for regeneration which takes a spiritually dead person and makes them alive so that they can seek after God. The conundrum that both the Arminian and the OVer faces is, “how does a spiritually dead person regenerates himself or herself so that he or she can seek after God?”

    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    When we point out such scriptures as Deut 4:29
    Take the time to actually look at that verse in context, you’ll find that it doesn’t help your case as much as you want it to.


    I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will soon utterly perish from the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess. You will not live long in it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you. 28 And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. 29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the LORD your God and obey his voice. (Deuteronomy 4:26-30 ESV)


    Look at verse 26!
    Moses calls heaven and earth as a witness that they won’t consistently seek God, and as a result won’t abide in the land but will perish from it and the Lord will scatter them among the people leaving them to serve idols as few in number among the nations.
    And that, incidentally, is exactly what happened when the Assyrian Empire came and carried away the northern tribes and the Babylonian’s came and carried away the southern tribes.
    Then, in the later days, they will return to the Lord God and obey His voice.
    You don’t even realize that this verse in context completely disproves your point. Why, because God has not given them hearts to understand, eyes to see or ears to hear (Deuteronomy 29:4).
    So what is so different between those in the later days who do return to the Lord and seek him and those in the former days who strayed from the Lord refusing to seek him?

    Hmmm, maybe this has a lil something to do with it.



    And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, (Ezekiel 11:19 ESV)


    When God gives them a new spirit, and removes the heart of stone from their flesh, and gives them a heart of flesh, then they will seek Him, know Him, obey him. So it is clear that man is responsible to consistently seek after God but it is also clear that Moses had no confidence that they would.
    Why do you think that was?
    Maybe it had something to do with their hearts of stone?
    Could it be that those hearts of stone rendered them unwilling and incapable of seeking after God like Paul says is the case in Romans 3:11.
    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    or Jer 29:13
    Again, if you look at the verse in context you will see that they God won’t be found by them until the 70 years of exile had passed (see Jeremiah 29:10) and it is principally because after those 70 years, God promises to visit them, and restore them. Furthermore, I would argue that even this restoration is preparation for the New Covenant in which God writes his laws on their hearts and causes them to walk in His law.
    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    or Acts 17:27,
    Where Paul points out that mankind is responsible for seeking after God which is not the same thing as say that each and every person is rendered spiritually able to seek after God and it is abundantly clear that not every single person is given equal opportunity to hear about Christ which makes Acts 17:26 a lot less friendly to the Arminian and Ov adherent.
    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    illustrating basic principles that man should seek God and God is willing to be found by man, the reply is usually that this only applies to those whom God has predestined.
    Mankind should seek God. Agreed. That is not the same thing as saying that mankind, which is dead in trespasses and sins, is spiritually able to seek God.
    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    Which is not a trifle disingenuous on God's part if it is true. After all, why would God say that he is willing to be found when he in effect has already chosen them?

    But praise the Lord that everyone can read the Bible and see for themselves the obvious and fair principle that God is willing to be found by anyone who seeks him.
    That’s right!
    Now everyone take your sharpies and black out Proverbs 1:28, Psalm 18:41, 1 Samuel 8:18, Jeremiah 11:11 Ezekiel 8:18!
    Oops.
    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    This aspect of God's character glorifies God because it shows God is fair and generous.
    Fair? You don’t want God to be “fair.” If God were acting based on what is fair, you would be thrown into hell with no chance of redemption and the man Jesus would have lived forever on earth. Fair means that the Righteous one lives and the sinner dies.
    That's not how it went down, is it?
    We sin, Jesus died.
    What about that sounds fair to you?
    God’s “fairness” only earns us damnation and gives the man Jesus His just rewards.
    God’s generosity means that some are spared from God’s fairness and are led to repentance. God was under no obligation to save any single one of us, aren't you glad that you are the an object of His generosity rather than His fairness?
    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    The idea that God is only willing to be found by those who he selected in advance in itself is bad enough but to then go around telling people that all they have to do is seek him with all their heart is the pits.
    You can impugn the character of Almighty God all you like, you will have to answer to Him for it.
    I will start my evaluations from scripture and reason outward rather than impose a fallen human understanding of what a “fair” God should do and then project that understanding onto scriptures contorting the meaning of inspired words in order to make them fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    Total depravity had to be invented to support predestination so that Calvinists could say that everyone deserved damnation anyway.
    Total depravity is the observation that sin affects the whole person, bodily and spiritually. Mind, reason and emotion are all affected by sin and as such the unregenerate man does not have a truly free will for his will is in bondage to sin.
    Perhaps you think it is fallacious to assume that everyone deserves damnation. If you do, perhaps you would be so kind as to list a few people other than the perfect Son of God, who do not deserve damnation because they have earned their place in heaven and are not in need of saving grace.
    A short list will be fine, 5 or 6 people will suffice.

    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    I have often said (see my signature on irresistible damnation) that in Calvinism, the vast majority of humanity cannot by any means whatsoever obtain salvation and the unique response I have received from Calvinists is that none of these people would ever want to be saved anyway.
    Totally true.
    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    Is it just me or did I really a moment ago hear Calvinists proclaiming that our wills are not determinative of our eternal destiny?
    Is it just me or does the prospect of God leaving our eternal destinies up to a sin infected heart of stone and a spiritually dead faculty of will not sound like good news?
    Perhaps you think that you are just naturally better, or smarter or more spiritual than your lost neighbor, so that you have some reason to brag but as for me, I am absolutely sure that salvation is not of myself. It is truly a gift, therefore I cannot boast. God didn’t find me faithfully seeking after him, He found me and saved me while I an enemy, hostile in mind and doing evil deeds.
    How about you?
    Quote Originally Posted by DESERT REIGN
    And yet here they are backtracking to get themselves out of trouble by elevating the role of the human will to a core pillar of their doctrine!
    Straw man. The sovereignty of God over salvation has always been the core pillar of Calvinistic doctrine. It’s not “backtracking” to point out that people who are dead in trespasses and sins don’t naturally choose to follow the paths of righteousness in and of themselves, it is, and has always been, a key observation of Calvinism.
    Now, I suppose that some Calvinists are duped by the essentially bankrupt argument that God isn’t being “fair” to choose some and not others. I’m not.
    The only answer to why God chooses some and not all is Romans 9:20.
    Nevertheless, it’s just disingenuous to argue that some will go into hell with the objection that they wanted to seek God they just couldn’t.
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    Worthy is the Lamb

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    No, and that has nothing to do with being totally depraved.
    You are either uninformed about the doctrine of total depravity or you are willingly misrepresenting the doctrine of total depravity.

    The former is excusable and there are many here who have already endeavored to clear up the confusion.

    The latter is bearing false witness!

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelforTruth
    Total depravity would mean one could nothing except sin.
    Untrue.

    Why are you so unwilling to let Calvinists define what Calvinists believe?

    Total depravity is Total not in the extent of the depravity but in the scope of one's depravity.

    For example, a pizza that is cut into 12 slices could be accurately described as "totally ruined" if every single slice of pizza was covered with pineapple (and yes, pineapple does, in fact, ruin a pizza).

    That does not mean that every single piece of pizza has nothing but pineapple all over it, it just means that there isn't a single slices of pizza that hasn't been touched by pineapple.

    The doctrine of Total depravity states, and has always stated, that no aspect of human existence is untouched by sin, therefore man is totally depraved.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4truth
    The bible says even the heathens can love one another and non believers can give good gifts to their children and that we can only love because He first loved us.

    That includes non believers. So no man is totally depraved - just partially.
    And there is no Calvinist who would argue that heaths can't love one another or that non-believers can't give good gifts.

    You aren't disproving total depravity only a inaccurate caricature of total depravity.

    Now, if you have done so, up to this point, unknowingly, that's no big deal. However, if you know what total depravity really teaches, and yet refuse to allow Calvinists to define their own doctrine and instead insist on putting words in our mouths so that you more easily refute the words that you put there in the first place, then you are bearing false witness and I would gently request that you stop.
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    Worthy is the Lamb

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    For me total depravity and limited atonement are not connected. They are deprecate issues. Total depravity defined properly is an accurate depicting of man's nature but limited atonement is a depicting of reasoning and logic but not provable by the scriptures themselves.

    Desert Rain didn't elaborate on the reason he denies election/predestination.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dialogos View Post
    You are either uninformed about the doctrine of total depravity or you are willingly misrepresenting the doctrine of total depravity.

    The former is excusable and there are many here who have already endeavored to clear up the confusion.

    The latter is bearing false witness!


    Untrue.

    Why are you so unwilling to let Calvinists define what Calvinists believe?

    Total depravity is Total not in the extent of the depravity but in the scope of one's depravity.

    For example, a pizza that is cut into 12 slices could be accurately described as "totally ruined" if every single slice of pizza was covered with pineapple (and yes, pineapple does, in fact, ruin a pizza).

    That does not mean that every single piece of pizza has nothing but pineapple all over it, it just means that there isn't a single slices of pizza that hasn't been touched by pineapple.

    The doctrine of Total depravity states, and has always stated, that no aspect of human existence is untouched by sin, therefore man is totally depraved.



    And there is no Calvinist who would argue that heaths can't love one another or that non-believers can't give good gifts.

    You aren't disproving total depravity only a inaccurate caricature of total depravity.

    Now, if you have done so, up to this point, unknowingly, that's no big deal. However, if you know what total depravity really teaches, and yet refuse to allow Calvinists to define their own doctrine and instead insist on putting words in our mouths so that you more easily refute the words that you put there in the first place, then you are bearing false witness and I would gently request that you stop.
    No, its not untrue and John MacArthur actually teaches that calvanism teaches that man can do nothing BUT sin and that that is the meaning of total depravity.

    Is he wrong about what calvanism teaches?

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    No, its not untrue and John MacArthur actually teaches that calvanism teaches that man can do nothing BUT sin and that that is the meaning of total depravity.



    Is he wrong about what calvanism teaches?

    JM is a strict calvanist. I believe in the unlimited atonement but believe the doctrine of election by God's good pleasure totally outside of man's merit. I believe man must be elected and part of election is enabling to seek God. Because of election I was able to exercise my will to believe. Without that enabling my will would have been limited to unbelief.


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    That way God remains sovereign by saving completely by grace and I am responsible for my faith.


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    I can't agree with God saving me based on seeing my faith from before eternity past because that makes faith a work.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    No, its not untrue and John MacArthur actually teaches that calvanism teaches that man can do nothing BUT sin and that that is the meaning of total depravity.

    Is he wrong about what calvanism teaches?
    John is talking about man's nature, a sin nature. It doesn't mean that the lost cannot give or do good things for others. The bible says they can and if anyone knows the bible it's John MacArthur. But good deeds (works) will not get you to Heaven. But God's grace will. God's grace cannot be earned. Our own faith is not of ourselves, it's from God by His grace. (Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB) I know this is a hard concept to accept, but it's 100% biblical.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    John is talking about man's nature, a sin nature. It doesn't mean that the lost cannot give or do good things for others. The bible says they can and if anyone knows the bible it's John MacArthur. But good deeds (works) will not get you to Heaven. But God's grace will. God's grace cannot be earned. Our own faith is not of ourselves, it's from God by His grace. (Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB) I know this is a hard concept to accept, but it's 100% biblical.

    JM is okay but definitely not the best out there. What's unique to his strict Calvinism is his views on Israel.


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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    JM is okay but definitely not the best out there. What's unique to his strict Calvinism is his views on Israel.

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    I would fall into that category too with respect to Israel. I differ with JM only on his interpretation Genesis, particularly, Young Earth Creationism. I am not aware of differing with him on anything else.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    No, its not untrue and John MacArthur actually teaches that calvanism teaches that man can do nothing BUT sin and that that is the meaning of total depravity.
    No he doesn't. You are in error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth
    Is he wrong about what calvanism teaches?
    No, you are wrong about what John MacArthur teaches.

    The following is John MacArthur speaking for John MacArthur on this very topic.



    Our hearts are poisoned by sin, and that is why we do not and cannot love God on our own. That is precisely what we mean when we talk about total depravity. It’s not that we are as evil as we could possibly be, but that evil has infected us totally—in every part of our soul—so that we are incapable of righteous desires and holy motives and loving affections toward God. Some theologians prefer the expression total inability, rather than total depravity. But the truth is the same—and I hope you can see how it is implied in this text. Arminians, if they are true Arminians, and not full-blown Pelagians, actually affirm that truth.

    (John MacArthur, Grace to You, Why I am a Calvinist, Part 6)

    Website address: http://www.gty.org/resources/article...lvinist-part-6



    Are you now ready to acknowledge that your understanding of the Calvinist Doctrine has been in error?
    αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
    Worthy is the Lamb

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