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Thread: Do Not Steal Intellectual Property

  1. #31
    LIFETIME MEMBER Yorzhik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Yorzhik-
    Is it immoral to download something for which you didn't pay, or to make copies for your use of something for which you didn't pay?

    Also I notice no one has yet answered my first question.
    Yes, it is immoral to break an unjust law when that law does not ask you to do something that breaks God's law.

    I'm not sure about the law when it comes to copying your own stuff. The moral thing to do is follow the law about it.
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  2. #32
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    So you don't think it is stealing anything from the musicians or authors to do that?
    No more than if I buy a car and give people a ride in it. If people want to call thoughts and ideas property, then the same rules apply. Property is property. If I buy a CD, it is mine to do with as I please.
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  3. #33
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    The Constitution, from where patents and copyrights get their legitimacy, does not call thoughts and ideas property. These are not property but inventors and writers are given exclusive rights for a limited time to promote progress, not to protect supposed ownership.

  4. #34
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
    Yes, it is immoral to break an unjust law when that law does not ask you to do something that breaks God's law.

    I'm not sure about the law when it comes to copying your own stuff. The moral thing to do is follow the law about it.
    Could you please answer the question according to the intent with which I asked it? I don't care what the law currently states; so, apart from the law is it immoral to do these things? And just for clarity's sake, I believe it is immoral to do the former, but not immoral to do the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    No more than if I buy a car and give people a ride in it. If people want to call thoughts and ideas property, then the same rules apply. Property is property. If I buy a CD, it is mine to do with as I please.
    How is it yours when what you are purchasing is the property of those who came up with it, and they decided to sell it which allowed you to purchase a copy? How is it then yours to do with as you wish to the extent of allowing someone else to copy it for themselves while you retain ownership of a copy? How is that not stealing from those who created it and decided to sell their creation to make money?

    If you could copy a car would it then be moral to make a copy of your car and either give it or sell it to another person while the people who created the car in the first place get no money from your sale of their creation?

    And don't bring up selling the originally purchased car itself as this is not at all the same thing. And neither is giving someone a ride. That only equates to allowing someone to borrow a CD or book.


  5. #35
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    No more than if I buy a car and give people a ride in it. If people want to call thoughts and ideas property, then the same rules apply. Property is property. If I buy a CD, it is mine to do with as I please.
    Do you believe you have the right to copy a $100 bill in your wallet and spend it as if it were real?
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  6. #36
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Do you believe you have the right to copy a $100 bill in your wallet and spend it as if it were real?
    Precisely!

    Of course, Nick may respond with, "The government does it, why can't I?"


  7. #37
    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Precisely!

    Of course, Nick may respond with, "The government does it, why can't I?"
    And Nick would be correct.
    Contrary to what many Americans seem to think, the document we now call "the Constitution" and the Declaration of Independence are not pretty much the same thing or "connected in spirit," or "two sides of the same coin." The two documents were written by two different groups of people at two different times to accomplish two totally different goals.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
    Yes, it is immoral to break an unjust law when that law does not ask you to do something that breaks God's law.
    You know, this the typical view of Romans 13, but there are honestly a number of ridiculous aspects to it. Does virtually any activity magically become immoral just because we have a government that feels the need to write a law about virtually anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Do you believe you have the right to copy a $100 bill in your wallet and spend it as if it were real?
    I wouldn't do that, but our currency system is already fraudulent to begin with, so I don't see why I should care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Precisely!

    Of course, Nick may respond with, "The government does it, why can't I?"
    I'd agree with Nick in this case. At least kind of. I wouldn't counterfeit money because it would reduce the purchasing power of other people, rather than hurting the banksters that are the real criminals. So I'm not advocating this. That said, the entire currency system IS a fraud.

    Ron Paul has discussed this actually, he didn't defend counterfeiters, but he did point out that the Bible commands "Honest weights and measures." A monetary system which bankers can inflate at will to benefit themselves at the expense of everyone else is fraudulent, not honest.

    Again, I'm not advocating counterfeiting, that would only hurt honest civilians, not the banksters. I'd much rather see people use gold, bitcoin, or other currencies that the banksters cannot manipulate, regardless of whether they have a legal right to do this or not (Using honest money is commanded by God, its not evil, so I don't really care whether the laws try to enforce the Federal Reserve monopoly or not). But the entire Federal Reserve System remains a fraud.

    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    And Nick would be correct.
    Indeed.

    I just found Ron Paul's "End the Fed" in a used bookstore and started reading. I knew the Fed was bad, but I didn't know just HOW bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
    Okay. Once we understand that in a real contract, it has to be agreed by both parties and each party has to show they agreed (sign). We can get onto how a country would handle creative media without copyrights.

    The good thing is, a free market would take care of it almost seamlessly. People want good music, books, poems, and all manner of good ideas. There are people that can provide it IF they have a reasonable risk of compensation for the effort. Especially with the internet, these sets of people could get together. Perhaps it would work like a patron system, where the paying people get to see it first. And/or it could work as a derivative system where artists can sell the live performance, not the recording. And/or we can add licensed official copies, creating a powerful collector's market; this would include numbered sets of artwork for a book or cover art on a CD. And don't forget the power of advertising. If an author is good, all the inexpensive copies are just free advertising for the percentage of copies that the author sells. And don't forget, that is true free advertising whereas even digital downloads aren't free because they take time and bandwidth. So the author actually gets the better deal in a market without copyrights. And let's not leave out software. But it's the easiest one because it makes money on its own; think of a company that says "Wow, these computers could make our work creating documents so much easier, but if an idea like that gets out, people will use it without paying us for it! Forget it, we'll just spend vast quantities of more dollars doing it on paper! That'll show'm!"

    And there is one more thing. With copyrights, you can't get a break as an author because there are other people selling horrible books in your way. What they have that you don't have is a good relationship with the gatekeepers of book distribution. Every copyrighted media has gatekeepers, and it's *them* that make the real money, not the artist. Thus, all the best artists aren't the ones that rise to the top, but a few of them on top of a pile of artists that shouldn't get the distribution they have. That's what copyright has gotten us.
    OK, I'm still a little confused but I think I understand this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    I don't see how. I have always heard that it is perfectly legal to make copies of my own legitimately purchased materials for my own personal use, such as copying my own CDs to my iTunes and then to my iPod. Of course, copying from iTunes to iPod is part of the agreement with Apple anyway, but still.
    The law says that you're buying a license, but it may allow you to copy your own. I'm not sure. It certainly should allow you to do that.

    So you don't think it is stealing anything from the musicians or authors to do that?
    I admit that my stance on IP is not settled and that I'm playing Devil's Advocate but... why do you have an inherent right to someone's possible future purchase?

    You wouldn't have that with anything else.

    How is not buying something theft?

  9. #39
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandPaulfor2016 View Post
    I'm very open minded.
    Oh. Ok. Whatever you say, Jr.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Oh. Ok. Whatever you say, Jr.
    I'm talking particularly regarding intellectual property, an issue where my position is not completely settled.

    But I'm not open minded to anything you say.

    BTW: anyone who knows who Stephan Kinsella is is by definition smarter than you are

  11. #41
    LIFETIME MEMBER Yorzhik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    Do you believe you have the right to copy a $100 bill in your wallet and spend it as if it were real?
    So I answer this question rather completely, in as much as is practical in forum, and people just continue discussing it as if no one addressed it at all.

    Maybe this will help?:

    Yes, it is OK to copy a $100 bill and spend it as if it were real as long as one made it clear it was a copy.
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

  12. #42
    LIFETIME MEMBER Yorzhik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandPaulfor2016 View Post
    You know, this the typical view of Romans 13, but there are honestly a number of ridiculous aspects to it. Does virtually any activity magically become immoral just because we have a government that feels the need to write a law about virtually anything?
    Basically, yes. Just remember that when a country starts getting ridiculous its end is near.

    I wouldn't do that, but our currency system is already fraudulent to begin with, so I don't see why I should care.
    This is irrelevant. Even if the gov't was able to control themselves and back their paper money with commodity money, the special case still stands.

    OK, I'm still a little confused but I think I understand this.
    Yes, I'm writing fast and short and it can be confusing. I'm responsible because I'm not a better writer. However, no copyrights and patents would actually make little difference in the end to an economy. In the end, people will innovate even without copyrights and patents because they will make money doing so.

    I admit that my stance on IP is not settled and that I'm playing Devil's Advocate but... why do you have an inherent right to someone's possible future purchase?

    You wouldn't have that with anything else.

    How is not buying something theft?
    Good points all. It's another inherent problem with IP. In the end it makes conclusions based on trying to tell the future (thereby altering the future so there is no way to know), and engage in thought control. Doing either of these is fraught with danger.
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

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  13. #43
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley View Post
    And Nick would be correct.
    So you believe that if the government does immoral things then it's okay for you to do immoral things?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
    Yes, it is OK to copy a $100 bill and spend it as if it were real as long as one made it clear it was a copy.
    If you made it clear it was a copy you wouldn't be able to sell it to anyone.

    Therefore in reality your answer is actually... No, you DO NOT have the right to copy a $100 bill in your wallet and spend it as if it were real.
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  14. #44
    LIFETIME MEMBER Yorzhik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    If you made it clear it was a copy you wouldn't be able to sell it to anyone.
    That's exactly the point. This would not be true of making a copy of a book and selling it. What's the difference?

    Therefore in reality your answer is actually... No, you DO NOT have the right to copy a $100 bill in your wallet and spend it as if it were real.
    Now hold on there. I meant exactly what I said. Yes, you do have the right as long as you aren't committing fraud.

    BTW, if someone did copy a bill now in the US, would they be arrested for copyright violations? And after answering that one, consider the same situation in a place that did not have copyright laws.
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  15. #45
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
    That's exactly the point. This would not be true of making a copy of a book and selling it. What's the difference?
    The difference is.... the moment you tell somebody your $100 bill is counterfeit it loses all value. Yet telling someone that you have made a copy of a song or a book doesn't lose all value. People can still listen to the copy of the song (in exact digital detail), and they can still read the copy of the book. In other words... they are getting the full value of the product from you even though it cost you nothing to produce and you have little to no investment in it's creation.

    One of my sources of income is digital clip art. Myself, My brother, and My father (God rest his soul), invested years of our lives drawing the images and converting them to digital clip art files to sell on the internet.

    I have found people that take my files and resell them on eBay and Craigslist. This is obviously devastating to my income because it robs me of potential sales. You would side with the thief who is stealing from me and my family. That kinda offends me.
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