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Thread: Do Not Steal Intellectual Property

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by illusionray View Post
    That clearly can't be right. Otherwise the buyer of the book is exempt from copyright restrictions which is just not true.
    I'm not sure I agree with him on that point, but we're discussing what the law should be, not what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    No. IP law allows for copying one's own legitimately purchased property for personal use.
    No. It's illegal to copy your own legitimately purchased property for your own use. First, the government doesn't recognized it as your property. You are only buying a license, a license that prohibits you from making any copies.

    It's also illegal to circumvent copy protection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabin View Post
    No. It's illegal to copy your own legitimately purchased property for your own use. First, the government doesn't recognized it as your property. You are only buying a license, a license that prohibits you from making any copies.

    It's also illegal to circumvent copy protection.
    Which is kind of stupid seeing as how you signed no contract agreeing to such, and you clearly bought the item in question.

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    Journeyman illusionray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandPaulfor2016 View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with him on that point, but we're discussing what the law should be, not what it is.
    Fair enough.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Yorzhik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by illusionray View Post
    That clearly can't be right. Otherwise the buyer of the book is exempt from copyright restrictions which is just not true.
    A following poster is correct; we are talking about how the law should be, not how it is.

    But this brings up a bigger point. Can you agree to a contract that says you don't own a book by buying the book?
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandPaulfor2016 View Post
    To be clear, I'm not an atheist, I'm a Baptist Christian. I was simply acknowledging that Kinsella is an atheist.
    I understood what you were saying. I know Kinsella is not a Christian.

    That might be correct, but doesn't change the reality of the situation.

    If necessary you could physically sign contracts, but that seems like an unnecessary step, you could simply state on the book that by buying you are consenting not to copy (Which is what "Copyright" generally means.)
    If the law were made right, then, absolutely, you'd be required to sign a contract when you buy a book to implement copyright. That's how all contracts work.

    I'm an aspiring author, who hasn't been published. I've spent several months working on my book, and will spend several more months editing.

    When I publish it, considering I did all the work, is it justifiable for someone else to be able to just print copies (very little work) and sell them?

    I guess the whole point of IP is for careers and jobs where the majority of the work is intellectual. It doesn't exactly seem fair to me that I could do all that work and then someone else could just copy my idea, put very little work into it, and sell to make a profit.

    That said, I respect Kinsella a lot and I do understand his arguments. I just don't 100% agree with him.

    At the same point, Enyart's argument is an appeal to legal positivism, which I don't generally agree with either.

    I'm still not quite sure where I stand.
    Which is why we have copyright. Your story is an easy sell to get a politician elected so he can implement copyright and, in effect, have the government own everything that is copyrighted or patented.

    But could you make a living without copyrights? If you were a good writer, you certainly could. We can get into how that works, too, if you'd like.
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabin View Post
    No. It's illegal to copy your own legitimately purchased property for your own use. First, the government doesn't recognized it as your property. You are only buying a license, a license that prohibits you from making any copies.
    You are incorrect.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
    I understood what you were saying. I know Kinsella is not a Christian.


    If the law were made right, then, absolutely, you'd be required to sign a contract when you buy a book to implement copyright. That's how all contracts work.


    Which is why we have copyright. Your story is an easy sell to get a politician elected so he can implement copyright and, in effect, have the government own everything that is copyrighted or patented.

    But could you make a living without copyrights? If you were a good writer, you certainly could. We can get into how that works, too, if you'd like.
    I'm very open minded. Please feel free to get into all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    You are incorrect.
    I'm pretty sure he's legally correct, although that law is absolutely stupid.

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorzhik View Post
    Copyrights, which are identical to patents, are simply a government granted monopoly of an idea.
    And that is immoral. If I see my neighbor build a deck on the back of his house, I don't have to pay him to have it built. Or let him have a cut from the builder because he thought of it first. It is stealing to say otherwise.

    If I buy a Toyota Camry, I can do whatever I damn well please with it, including giving people a free ride so they don't have to buy a Camry themselves. In fact, it is moral to charge them to ride in my car if I wanted to do it.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandPaulfor2016 View Post
    I'm very open minded. Please feel free to get into all that.
    Okay. Once we understand that in a real contract, it has to be agreed by both parties and each party has to show they agreed (sign). We can get onto how a country would handle creative media without copyrights.

    The good thing is, a free market would take care of it almost seamlessly. People want good music, books, poems, and all manner of good ideas. There are people that can provide it IF they have a reasonable risk of compensation for the effort. Especially with the internet, these sets of people could get together. Perhaps it would work like a patron system, where the paying people get to see it first. And/or it could work as a derivative system where artists can sell the live performance, not the recording. And/or we can add licensed official copies, creating a powerful collector's market; this would include numbered sets of artwork for a book or cover art on a CD. And don't forget the power of advertising. If an author is good, all the inexpensive copies are just free advertising for the percentage of copies that the author sells. And don't forget, that is true free advertising whereas even digital downloads aren't free because they take time and bandwidth. So the author actually gets the better deal in a market without copyrights. And let's not leave out software. But it's the easiest one because it makes money on its own; think of a company that says "Wow, these computers could make our work creating documents so much easier, but if an idea like that gets out, people will use it without paying us for it! Forget it, we'll just spend vast quantities of more dollars doing it on paper! That'll show'm!"

    And there is one more thing. With copyrights, you can't get a break as an author because there are other people selling horrible books in your way. What they have that you don't have is a good relationship with the gatekeepers of book distribution. Every copyrighted media has gatekeepers, and it's *them* that make the real money, not the artist. Thus, all the best artists aren't the ones that rise to the top, but a few of them on top of a pile of artists that shouldn't get the distribution they have. That's what copyright has gotten us.
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    And that is immoral. If I see my neighbor build a deck on the back of his house, I don't have to pay him to have it built. Or let him have a cut from the builder because he thought of it first. It is stealing to say otherwise.

    If I buy a Toyota Camry, I can do whatever I damn well please with it, including giving people a free ride so they don't have to buy a Camry themselves. In fact, it is moral to charge them to ride in my car if I wanted to do it.
    Amen brother!
    Good things come to those who shoot straight.

    Did you only want evidence you are not going to call "wrong"? -Stripe

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    I am not buying a license or a service. I am buying a product.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Yorzhik-
    Is it immoral to download something for which you didn't pay, or to make copies for your use of something for which you didn't pay?

    Also I notice no one has yet answered my first question.


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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Yorzhik-
    Is it immoral to download something for which you didn't pay, or to make copies for your use of something for which you didn't pay?
    It depends on where you download it from or from whom. I can give away anything I want. It is mine. Can a man not do with his property as he wants?
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandPaulfor2016 View Post
    I'm pretty sure he's legally correct, although that law is absolutely stupid.
    I don't see how. I have always heard that it is perfectly legal to make copies of my own legitimately purchased materials for my own personal use, such as copying my own CDs to my iTunes and then to my iPod. Of course, copying from iTunes to iPod is part of the agreement with Apple anyway, but still.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    It depends on where you download it from or from whom. I can give away anything I want. It is mine. Can a man not do with his property as he wants?
    So you don't think it is stealing anything from the musicians or authors to do that?


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