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Thread: One on One; Granite and fool on the Zimmerman Case

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    One on One; Granite and fool on the Zimmerman Case

    Sweet!
    Here we are with our own thread to figure this all out.

    The Zimmerman case will go down in history as a study of how the media can spread misinformation like wildfire until the public is ready to lynch someone, but once you start to gather the facts you find out that half of what you thought you knew was wrong.

    When this case first broke the news I was one of those ready to lynch Zimmerman. Once more facts came out I realized I had been trolled by the media (me and everyone else).

    I am now of the opinion that Zimmerman did nothing wrong.

    What say you Granite?
    Everyman is a voice in the dark.
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    Zimmerman acted foolishly, recklessly, and made this situation happen. If he'd acted with any kind of sense, prudence, or responsibility as a gun owner a teenager would still be alive and Zimmerman's life wouldn't be ruined. To say he did nothing wrong that night is simply inaccurate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granite View Post
    Zimmerman acted foolishly, recklessly, and made this situation happen. If he'd acted with any kind of sense, prudence, or responsibility as a gun owner a teenager would still be alive and Zimmerman's life wouldn't be ruined. To say he did nothing wrong that night is simply inaccurate.
    OK, that's what I thought you'd say and that's why we're here.
    First I guess we have to agree on the facts of the case, did Martin jump Zimmerman?
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    Quote Originally Posted by fool View Post
    OK, that's what I thought you'd say and that's why we're here.
    First I guess we have to agree on the facts of the case, did Martin jump Zimmerman?
    There is no way to know for sure. Being dogmatic about this detail's impossible if you're being objective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granite View Post
    There is no way to know for sure. Being dogmatic about this detail's impossible if you're being objective.
    Right, I'm not dogmatic about anything in this case, but we have to at least try to establish what went down in order to get to the part where;
    Zimmerman acted foolishly, recklessly, and made this situation happen. If he'd acted with any kind of sense, prudence, or responsibility..........
    How did Zimmerman make this situation happen?
    This is where it's important we come to some working conclusion as to who did what.
    If Zimmerman found and tried to detain Martin then that would be criminal on Zimmerman's part.
    But we have no evidence of that being the case.
    Going with the Zimmerman version for now, at what point did he take an action that was reckless?
    Or rather, what did he do that he should have expected to get attacked for?
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    How did Zimmerman make this situation happen?
    He had the gun. He gave pursuit. He assumed Martin had no business or right to be in the neighborhood. He immediately assumed Martin was a criminal. He was still, when being interviewed after the shooting, with clarifying facts provided to him by Serino, muttering "punks" under his breath. (Serino finally called him out on it.)

    One guy was armed and one guy got out of his car. One guy didn't identify himself as neighborhood watch. It's hard for me to see Zimmerman as anything less than an instigator.

    If Zimmerman found and tried to detain Martin then that would be criminal on Zimmerman's part.
    I don't think he ever claimed that's what he had in mind, but I believe you're correct.

    Going with the Zimmerman version for now, at what point did he take an action that was reckless?
    Well, let's see: He claimed he saw an individual he deemed "suspicious." He then claimed he forgot he was carrying his sidearm. And he claimed to be in fear of this individual--a "punk," in Zimmerman's words, who was presumably a criminal--even before giving pursuit on foot.

    Assuming Zimmerman's telling the entire truth, what about his account, taking his story at face value, strikes you as prudent, smart, or responsible? Put another way: Would you consider a guy so daft he doesn't remember he's got a gun, who pursues a fishy character on a dark and rainy night, and tells the cops he was scared the whole time,to be someone who wasn't reckless? At best, Zimmerman acted like a complete dope, and that's assuming he didn't lie, or embellish his story. Even his own account doesn't paint him in a very favorable light. I'm surprised a detective didn't just flat-out ask him at some point: "George, what the hell did you think you were doing?"

    Or rather, what did he do that he should have expected to get attacked for?
    As I've said before: If I had a right to be somewhere, and was walking home, and a dude in a baseball cap started following me--to the point where he got out of his vehicle to keep up with me--my first thought would not have been, "Oh, it's cool; he must be with the neighborhood watch." Why this never occurred to Zimmerman just shows how confident he was that Trayvon Martin was a prowler, or intruder of some kind. And if Zimmerman also thought Martin was on drugs--on top of being a crook--he should have been smart enough to ask himself just what a criminal who was high might do to someone who was following him around in the rain.

    Zimmerman followed a stranger and confronted him. If Zimmerman was so sure Martin was a crook, or at least up to no good, what did Zimmerman expect to have happen?

    Put yet another way: If you start following a guy you're sure is a deviant high on drugs, how do you think he'll react?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granite View Post
    He had the gun. He gave pursuit.
    Help me out with "giving pursuit".
    He assumed Martin had no business or right to be in the neighborhood. He immediately assumed Martin was a criminal. He was still, when being interviewed after the shooting, with clarifying facts provided to him by Serino, muttering "punks" under his breath. (Serino finally called him out on it.)
    He called in somthing suspicious.


    One guy was armed and one guy got out of his car.
    Should getting out of your car be grounds for getting jumped?

    One guy didn't identify himself as neighborhood watch.
    Good point.
    But does he have to?
    At what point did Zimmerman go from person walking around to "threat that had to be confronted"?
    It's hard for me to see Zimmerman as anything less than an instigator.
    Where in the Zimmerman narrative did he instigate anything?








    Assuming Zimmerman's telling the entire truth, what about his account, taking his story at face value, strikes you as prudent, smart, or responsible? Put another way: Would you consider a guy so daft he doesn't remember he's got a gun, who pursues a fishy character on a dark and rainy night, and tells the cops he was scared the whole time,to be someone who wasn't reckless? At best, Zimmerman acted like a complete dope, and that's assuming he didn't lie, or embellish his story. Even his own account doesn't paint him in a very favorable light. I'm surprised a detective didn't just flat-out ask him at some point: "George, what the hell did you think you were doing?"
    He was keeping eyes on the guy?
    I don't see the narrative bearing out a hot pursuit?
    A soft pursuit in the dark with no flashlight for sure, and here you score some points, Zimmerman had a flashlight that didn't work.



    As I've said before: If I had a right to be somewhere, and was walking home, and a dude in a baseball cap started following me--to the point where he got out of his vehicle to keep up with me--my first thought would not have been, "Oh, it's cool; he must be with the neighborhood watch." Why this never occurred to Zimmerman just shows how confident he was that Trayvon Martin was a prowler, or intruder of some kind. And if Zimmerman also thought Martin was on drugs--on top of being a crook--he should have been smart enough to ask himself just what a criminal who was high might do to someone who was following him around in the rain.
    But Martin doubles back and circled Zimmerman?




    Zimmerman followed a stranger and confronted him
    .
    Where? When?

    If Zimmerman was so sure Martin was a crook, or at least up to no good, what did Zimmerman expect to have happen?
    He expected that the cops he called would show up and interview Martin?
    Put yet another way: If you start following a guy you're sure is a deviant high on drugs, how do you think he'll react?
    Just like Martin did?
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    Help me out with "giving pursuit".
    "Following someone on foot" pretty much sums it up.

    He called in somthing suspicious.
    Something he deemed suspicious that proved to be innocuous.

    Should getting out of your car be grounds for getting jumped?
    That all depends, now doesn't it. I think we can both think of plenty of hypotheticals where a guy emerging from his vehicle deserves to get his butt kicked. But that's really besides the point: Zimmerman did not merely leave his vehicle.

    Good point. But does he have to?
    I'm not aware of any legal obligation he was under to do so. That said, not even attempting as much strikes me as one more foolhardy mistake out of several.

    At what point did Zimmerman go from person walking around to "threat that had to be confronted"?
    Well, that's the thing: No one but Zimmerman is sure about what exactly happened that night, so we're all left with speculation.

    Where in the Zimmerman narrative did he instigate anything?
    When he decided Trayon Martin was a crook and kept the guy in his crosshairs. That's when.

    He was keeping eyes on the guy?
    Yes, absolutely. In the words of Detective Serino: "That's following."

    But Martin doubles back and circled Zimmerman?
    We don't know for sure that he did. (Do we?) And maybe he did because he wanted to see where Zimmerman was or what the guy was up to. Maybe he got disoriented. Maybe he was scared and confused and panicking.

    Remember: Martin had no more reason (and showed no indication) to trust Zimmerman anymore than Zimmerman trusted him. There seems to be an implicit understanding from many of Zimmerman's defenders that Martin should've just let Zimmerman trail him without once assuming the worst about Zimmerman and his intentions.

    Where? When?
    https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079

    Zimmerman: And I wasn’t following him. I was just going in the same direction he was. Once he said…
    Serino: That’s following (laughs).

    Singleton: The other day you told me you got out of the car because dispatch was asking your location and you wanted to orient yourself. You did not tell me that you said, “Oh, ****, he’s running” and then got out of the car and went in that same direction at the same time. Do you see what the problem is?
    Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
    Singleton: And I asked you did, would you, did you, you know, look for him and you told me no.
    Zimmerman: I don’t remember, ma’am. I’m sorry.
    Singleton: You told me the only, the reason you got out of your car was to get an address.
    Zimmerman: Yes, right.
    Singleton: But you decided to get the address…fresh in the second after you say, “Oh, ****, he’s running.” And then it sounds like you’re running too.

    Just like Martin did?
    Again: We don't know how exactly Martin reacted, who threw the first blow, etc. But if Zimmerman thought he was chasing a drugged-up crook while unarmed he's a complete fool and a reckless dope with a death wish.

    Either that or he knew full well he was armed and figured he was tougher than he actually was.

    Words were exchanged, his blood was up, and instead of "Neighborhood Watch, can I help you?" he confronted a teenager and wound up killing him.

    He followed. He instigated.
    If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granite View Post
    "Following someone on foot" pretty much sums it up.
    Zimmerman had just as much right to walk down that sidewalk as Martin did, as did anybody else for that matter.



    Something he deemed suspicious that proved to be innocuous.
    But it didn't prove to be innocuous did it? Apparently Martin attacks people that use the sidewalk within a certain time frame after he used it?



    That all depends, now doesn't it. I think we can both think of plenty of hypotheticals where a guy emerging from his vehicle deserves to get his butt kicked. But that's really besides the point: Zimmerman did not merely leave his vehicle.
    Zimmerman had just as much right to walk down that side walk as Martin did.



    I'm not aware of any legal obligation he was under to do so. That said, not even attempting as much strikes me as one more foolhardy mistake out of several.
    It doesn't seem like he got much of a chance for small talk. He was on his way to the store so if he did have some kind of uniform for his watch thing he didn't have it on.



    Well, that's the thing: No one but Zimmerman is sure about what exactly happened that night, so we're all left with speculation.
    And the speculation runs rampant. as well as the character assination on both sides.
    The the main reason I wanted the One on One was so we can examine the facts of those two individuals actions that night with out the rabbit trails of what's on whose cell phone and who shoved a cop once upon a time.



    When he decided Trayon Martin was a crook and kept the guy in his crosshairs. That's when.



    Yes, absolutely. In the words of Detective Serino: "That's following."



    We don't know for sure that he did. (Do we?) And maybe he did because he wanted to see where Zimmerman was or what the guy was up to. Maybe he got disoriented. Maybe he was scared and confused and panicking.

    Remember: Martin had no more reason (and showed no indication) to trust Zimmerman anymore than Zimmerman trusted him. There seems to be an implicit understanding from many of Zimmerman's defenders that Martin should've just let Zimmerman trail him without once assuming the worst about Zimmerman and his intentions.



    https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079

    Zimmerman: And I wasn’t following him. I was just going in the same direction he was. Once he said…
    Serino: That’s following (laughs).

    Singleton: The other day you told me you got out of the car because dispatch was asking your location and you wanted to orient yourself. You did not tell me that you said, “Oh, ****, he’s running” and then got out of the car and went in that same direction at the same time. Do you see what the problem is?
    Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
    Singleton: And I asked you did, would you, did you, you know, look for him and you told me no.
    Zimmerman: I don’t remember, ma’am. I’m sorry.
    Singleton: You told me the only, the reason you got out of your car was to get an address.
    Zimmerman: Yes, right.
    Singleton: But you decided to get the address…fresh in the second after you say, “Oh, ****, he’s running.” And then it sounds like you’re running too.



    Again: We don't know how exactly Martin reacted, who threw the first blow, etc. But if Zimmerman thought he was chasing a drugged-up crook while unarmed he's a complete fool and a reckless dope with a death wish.

    Either that or he knew full well he was armed and figured he was tougher than he actually was.

    Words were exchanged, his blood was up, and instead of "Neighborhood Watch, can I help you?" he confronted a teenager and wound up killing him.

    He followed. He instigated.[/QUOTE]
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    Zimmerman had just as much right to walk down that sidewalk as Martin did, as did anybody else for that matter.
    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    But it didn't prove to be innocuous did it? Apparently Martin attacks people that use the sidewalk within a certain time frame after he used it?
    ...or he fights back after being attacked. Again: Saying Martin attacked Zimmerman is being dogmatic without having the full facts at our disposal.

    It doesn't seem like he got much of a chance for small talk.
    Yet he found time to speak to Martin and didn't even bother identifying himself or his role in the neighborhood. Zimmerman was confrontational in the brief exchange and didn't need to be. He chose to be.

    The the main reason I wanted the One on One was so we can examine the facts of those two individuals actions that night with out the rabbit trails of what's on whose cell phone and who shoved a cop once upon a time.
    Agreed. And I haven't brought up those rabbit holes or suggested we plunge down them yet again. Not sure why you brought this up, especially since if anyone's speculating so far, it's you. I don't know who struck first that night. Nobody does except Zimmerman. To say otherwise is unfounded and purely speculative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granite View Post
    "Following someone on foot" pretty much sums it up.
    Zimmerman had just as much right to walk down that sidewalk as Martin did, as did anybody else for that matter.



    Something he deemed suspicious that proved to be innocuous.
    But it didn't prove to be innocuous did it? Apparently Martin attacks people that use the sidewalk within a certain time frame after he used it?



    That all depends, now doesn't it. I think we can both think of plenty of hypotheticals where a guy emerging from his vehicle deserves to get his butt kicked. But that's really besides the point: Zimmerman did not merely leave his vehicle.
    Zimmerman had just as much right to walk down that side walk as Martin did.



    I'm not aware of any legal obligation he was under to do so. That said, not even attempting as much strikes me as one more foolhardy mistake out of several.
    It doesn't seem like he got much of a chance for small talk. He was on his way to the store so if he did have some kind of uniform for his watch thing he didn't have it on.



    Well, that's the thing: No one but Zimmerman is sure about what exactly happened that night, so we're all left with speculation.
    And the speculation runs rampant. as well as the character assination on both sides.
    The the main reason I wanted the One on One was so we can examine the facts of those two individuals actions that night with out the rabbit trails of what's on whose cell phone and who shoved a cop once upon a time.



    When he decided Trayon Martin was a crook and kept the guy in his crosshairs. That's when.
    That's not instigating. Zimmerman saw Martin, drove past him and parked at the clubhouse, called the cops, and observed. Martin made went past him, down the side walk, then turned around and walked all the way back to Zimmerman and walked in a circle around his truck eyeballing him. That is instigating. Unless Martin was conducting some kind of exercise routine that required back tracking and making a circle. If Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation he would have had it then, but he was on the phone to the cops and observed and reported the behavior. Did not get out of his truck.



    Yes, absolutely. In the words of Detective Serino: "That's following."
    Zimmerman had as much right to walk down that side walk as anybody.



    We don't know for sure that he did. (Do we?) And maybe he did because he wanted to see where Zimmerman was or what the guy was up to. Maybe he got disoriented. Maybe he was scared and confused and panicking.
    He was away from Zimmerman, who did nothing beyond drive past him and park.
    He chose to come back and circle.
    That's not scared, confused or panicking.
    He backtracked to eyeball the guy that was eyeballing him.



    Remember: Martin had no more reason (and showed no indication) to trust Zimmerman anymore than Zimmerman trusted him. There seems to be an implicit understanding from many of Zimmerman's defenders that Martin should've just let Zimmerman trail him without once assuming the worst about Zimmerman and his intentions.
    But that falls apart because Zimmerman parked and Martin came back to him and circled.
    Zimmerman had just as much right to walk down that side walk as Martin had to backtrack.



    https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079

    Zimmerman: And I wasn’t following him. I was just going in the same direction he was. Once he said…
    Serino: That’s following (laughs).

    Singleton: The other day you told me you got out of the car because dispatch was asking your location and you wanted to orient yourself. You did not tell me that you said, “Oh, ****, he’s running” and then got out of the car and went in that same direction at the same time. Do you see what the problem is?
    Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
    Singleton: And I asked you did, would you, did you, you know, look for him and you told me no.
    Zimmerman: I don’t remember, ma’am. I’m sorry.
    Singleton: You told me the only, the reason you got out of your car was to get an address.
    Zimmerman: Yes, right.
    Singleton: But you decided to get the address…fresh in the second after you say, “Oh, ****, he’s running.” And then it sounds like you’re running too.
    Zimmerman had as much right to walk down that side walk as Martin, or anybody, or run, or skip, or hopscotch.



    Again: We don't know how exactly Martin reacted, who threw the first blow, etc. But if Zimmerman thought he was chasing a drugged-up crook while unarmed he's a complete fool and a reckless dope with a death wish.
    He followed at a distance, observing, like I said he as just as much right to walk down that side walk as anybody.

    Either that or he knew full well he was armed and figured he was tougher than he actually was.
    If he wanted a confrontation he would have challenged hi when he circled the car.

    Words were exchanged, his blood was up, and instead of "Neighborhood Watch, can I help you?" he confronted a teenager and wound up killing him.
    That's not shown.
    He followed. He instigated.
    Again, Zimmerman had as much right to walk down that side walk as anybody.
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    All right, looks like you edited your response, so I'll address the new material.

    That's not instigating. Zimmerman saw Martin, drove past him and parked at the clubhouse, called the cops, and observed.
    Did you read the transcript or the excerpt I posted? Right before the encounter he saw Martin, then broke into a run and followed him. He also tried to weasel out of this and ommitted it from his account with one of the detectives until called on it.

    If Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation he would have had it then, but he was on the phone to the cops and observed and reported the behavior. Did not get out of his truck.
    Again, that's at odds with the transcript.

    That's not scared, confused or panicking.
    Zimmerman told 911 Martin was running away. He followed the kid.

    If he'd stayed back, or not pursued Martin, or stayed in his vehicle--in short, if Zimmerman had done anything other than what he chose to do that night--none of this would've happened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granite View Post
    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.
    He could have ignored Martin, that's what I would have done but I would have ignored him because I wouldn't have noticed him due to my self absorption.
    Zimmerman was apparently less self absorbed.



    ...or he fights back after being attacked. Again: Saying Martin attacked Zimmerman is being dogmatic without having the full facts at our disposal.
    But what happened is important. We have Zimmerman signing off with the dispatcher having lost sight of Martin. So did Martin attack Zimmerman like Zimmerman said?
    Or did Zimmerman start beating the bushes after he signed off and flush Martin out?
    This would make a huge difference

    Can we put together a plausible scenario that has Zimmerman finding Martin and attacking him?


    Yet he found time to speak to Martin and didn't even bother identifying himself or his role in the neighborhood.
    According to Zimmerman he had time to say "no" to the guy that appeared out of nowhere.
    Zimmerman was confrontational in the brief exchange and didn't need to be.
    How can "no" be confrontational?
    He chose to be.
    He said "no"?
    Did he say somthing else?



    I don't know who struck first that night. Nobody does except Zimmerman. To say otherwise is unfounded and purely speculative.
    One guy had a bullet hole and one guy had a smashed nose and a bloody head?
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    He could have ignored Martin, that's what I would have done but I would have ignored him because I wouldn't have noticed him due to my self absorption.
    Zimmerman was apparently less self absorbed.
    Given his track record for repeat 911 calls I'd say he was more on the prowl than anything else.

    But what happened is important. We have Zimmerman signing off with the dispatcher having lost sight of Martin. So did Martin attack Zimmerman like Zimmerman said?
    Or did Zimmerman start beating the bushes after he signed off and flush Martin out?
    This would make a huge difference
    It would, but we don't know for sure.

    Can we put together a plausible scenario that has Zimmerman finding Martin and attacking him?
    Yes, but I thought we were trying to stay away from speculation.

    According to Zimmerman he had time to say "no" to the guy that appeared out of nowhere.
    Ah yes, the old jumped out of the ankle-high bushes story. That dog don't hunt.

    How can "no" be confrontational?
    Why didn't he identify himself? "Hey, neighborhood watch. Can I help you?" He claims he didn't want to confront Martin but chasing after the guy puts the lie to that claim.

    One guy had a bullet hole and one guy had a smashed nose and a bloody head?
    That doesn't change what I said. We don't know who swung first.
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    Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granite View Post
    All right, looks like you edited your response, so I'll address the new material.
    I hit submit instead of preview then hit stop and back thinking I had aborted the submit but it went thru and you responded while I was finishing.



    Did you read the transcript or the excerpt I posted? Right before the encounter he saw Martin, then broke into a run and followed him. He also tried to weasel out of this and ommitted it from his account with one of the detectives until called on it.
    But he was on the phone to dispatch and lost Martin.
    Contact broken.
    Phone call ended.

    Again, that's at odds with the transcript.
    He did not get out of his truck when Martin backtracked and circled him.



    Zimmerman told 911 Martin was running away. He followed the kid.
    Because the kid took off running where Zimmerman couldn't keep eyes on him from his truck.
    If he'd stayed back, or not pursued Martin, or stayed in his vehicle--in short, if Zimmerman had done anything other than what he chose to do that night--none of this would've happened.
    None of it would have happened if he just went to the store and didn't call the cops about the suspcious character.
    Everyman is a voice in the dark.
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