BRXII Battle talk

Solaris said:

What? You think you could throw people into a lake of fire?

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I believe that I could, although I don't believe I'll ever be called upon to do so.

I can unequivocally say that I could not, I really think you do not have the slightest clue in what you are talking about...

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I never said or thought that you could; I don't know you from Adam. I have experienced hell, personally, and know what it feels like.

...I also wonder if you have actually encountered suffering of any extreme kind in order to have made such a heartless admission

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It isn't heartless, as I said, those who end up there deserve their fate. The 'heartless' believe there is no such thing as hell or even God. Those who are foolish presume to know another, without knowing the slightest thing about them.

Balder said:

At the time I first became Christian, I believed in eternal torment. I thought that Christ saved us from our own fallenness and from ultimate condemnation on the Day of Judgment.

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And you gave up your salvation because...?

When I say that salvation "rests on" the torment of billions, I mean that the possibility of beings being tormented eternally is literally "built into" God's overall plan -- as it is taught in many mainstream churches today.

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But salvation is the exact opposite. Salvation rests on being saved, not unsaved.

I guess I am having trouble understanding how you can understand and ask for slavation, then give it up.

... for Dave Miller...

... for Dave Miller...

There is nothing 'repentive' about hell, other than the fact that everyone there will be 'sorry' that they are there. Repentance (Godly repentance) comes from The Lord. It is His Good Pleasure to see to it that men are drawn to Him, all men. Not all men respond. Jesus said that those who believe upon Him would be saved. He didn't mean those who are doomed to hell would be granted pardon upon seeing Him. He designed this world to be in 'darkness' (without His Manifest Presence) so that those who believe could be manifest, not as a game prior to allowing everyone willy-nilly into Heaven. Universalism makes salvation into works. Grace is God's Gift, through repentance, not by force, but by love. You make God into Satan, forcing people to do His Will. If He were like that, why bother with earth, why not just appear, and start cracking His Big Whip? Isn't that what you believe that He is doing with hell? If universalism is true, then Satan will bring more into The Kingdom than Jesus. Where do you believe we should put Jesus' Throne, in that case; since Satan's will be at God's Right Hand (the 'honored' position)?

Nineveh said:

And you gave up your salvation because...?



But salvation is the exact opposite. Salvation rests on being saved, not unsaved.

I guess I am having trouble understanding how you can understand and ask for slavation, then give it up.

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There are many different elements involved in the decision to move away from what I believed and was taught.

One that is relevant to this discussion is this: I don't want salvation if everyone can't have it. I don't want it if others are going to suffer terribly forever.

Balder said:

There are many different elements involved in the decision to move away from what I believed and was taught.

One that is relevant to this discussion is this: I don't want salvation if everyone can't have it. I don't want it if others are going to suffer terribly forever.

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Indeed.

Paradise would be turned into eternal torment knowing that others are suffering.

Better to "suffer with" others than to feast with the Pharisees.

Balder said:

One that is relevant to this discussion is this: I don't want salvation if everyone can't have it. I don't want it if others are going to suffer terribly forever.

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Everyone can though.

You didn't want to be saved if everyone doesn't want what you want. Instead of being someone to who seeks to see less in hell, you chose to forgo your own salvation because some may choose not to be with your God. That sounds really odd to me. It sounds like a wierd sort of martyrdom.

Did you then and do you now still believe Christ rose from the dead? Or upon your apostasy from Christ start believing Jesus to be a fable?

Both of you can go to hell, if that is what you want, but you don't have to. Jesus offers Life. If you continue to refuse Him, He won't force you to accept His Offer. He isn't Satan, as you seem to believe that He is.

Well, as I understand the common belief, there are already many, many people who have died without having accepted or even heard about Christ, and all of them will suffer forever. So, already it's too late to say, "Everyone can be saved."

About the resurrection: I believed it when I was a Christian. Now, I still accept it as a possibility, but I no longer believe it unquestioningly.

Aimiel said:

Solaris said:

What? You think you could throw people into a lake of fire?

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"I believe that I could..."

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Sadly, I believe that you could too.

I prefer to emulate the attitude of Paul.

Romans 9:3 - "For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of... (others)."

PastorKevin said:

Why do I need to do the work for you? If you aren't willing to invest enough time to look into it, then why ask me to do it for you? I could post the verses, but you know what, you should make an effort to see if it be so. It would be relatively simple to search for the answer. Biblegateway.com or another such website would be a good place to look.

My guess would be you already know the verses that I am speaking about but want to have something to argue about. Is it your honest assertment that you haven't read verses that talk about "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?

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He didn't ask you to show verses that mentioned "weeping and gnashing of teeth", but to show the verses that describe the lake of fire as such.

As if you didn't know.

Redfin said:

Sadly, I believe that you could too.

I prefer to emulate the attitude of Paul.

Romans 9:3 - "For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of... (others)."

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Beautiful sermon Paul has there, thanx for reminding us.

Romans 11:32-33a "For God has imprisoned ALL in disobedience so that He might be
merciful to ALL. O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God..."

Aimiel said:

There is nothing 'repentive' about hell, other than the fact that everyone there will be 'sorry' that they are there. Repentance (Godly repentance) comes from The Lord. It is His Good Pleasure to see to it that men are drawn to Him, all men. Not all men respond. Jesus said that those who believe upon Him would be saved. He didn't mean those who are doomed to hell would be granted pardon upon seeing Him. He designed this world to be in 'darkness' (without His Manifest Presence) so that those who believe could be manifest, not as a game prior to allowing everyone willy-nilly into Heaven. Universalism makes salvation into works. Grace is God's Gift, through repentance, not by force, but by love. You make God into Satan, forcing people to do His Will. If He were like that, why bother with earth, why not just appear, and start cracking His Big Whip? Isn't that what you believe that He is doing with hell? If universalism is true, then Satan will bring more into The Kingdom than Jesus. Where do you believe we should put Jesus' Throne, in that case; since Satan's will be at God's Right Hand (the 'honored' position)?

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Its true, that for a time, God allows us to struggle, that through our struggling we may
voluntarily come to know and Serve Him.

It is also true that in the end, God will reconcile all unto God's Self.

We who know and serve God, do so through helping others, this is God's commandment
to us. Through our service and help, others come to recognize God's Love and Mercy,
for we serve and help others in obedience and gratitude and communion with God.

Perhaps this is the Divine Plan, we who recognize the call continue to serve those
who suffer, until all voluntarily come to know and Serve God.

Imagine a world where everyone recognizes God's call to serve and help each other?

This would be paradise indeed.

Dave Miller said:

Its true, that for a time, God allows us to struggle, that through our struggling we may voluntarily come to know and Serve Him. It is also true that in the end, God will reconcile all unto God's Self.

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As I said, in your understanding, Satan will have more that he's converted, with hell, than Jesus converts with Truth; so in your 'scenario' what do we do about the throne conflict. Will Jesus bow to Satan? I'm afraid that you're in extreme error, and without understanding, due to having swallowed your heresy (universalism).

Aimiel said:

As I said, in your understanding, Satan will have more that he's converted, with hell, than Jesus converts with Truth; so in your 'scenario' what do we do about the throne conflict. Will Jesus bow to Satan? I'm afraid that you're in extreme error, and without understanding, due to having swallowed your heresy (universalism).

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Hi Aimiel

You bring up a compelling question.

I'll try to clarify with a few propositions statements:

1. Satan is the ruler of Hell
2. Throughout time the majority of people who ever exist will not accept Christ as Lord
and Savior
3. More people will end up in hell than in heavan
4. If hell is a place of Universalist redemption, its logical to assume that more people will
find redemption through Hell and Satan than find redemption through Christ.

Is this a fair summary of your concern, and I'd like to ask Logos and others how they
would respond to this proposition?

Aimiel said:

I believe that I could, although I don't believe I'll ever be called upon to do so.I never said or thought that you could; I don't know you from Adam. I have experienced hell, personally, and know what it feels like.It isn't heartless, as I said, those who end up there deserve their fate. The 'heartless' believe there is no such thing as hell or even God. Those who are foolish presume to know another, without knowing the slightest thing about them.

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Then you have a heart of stone and are another prime example of the hideousness of your own doctrine, if you believe that you could forcibly throw screaming helpless people into a burnig pit then i really am sorry for your spiritual state, would you have been able to throw jews into the gas chambers? Your comments are truly truly sickening and there is no light whatsoever in your posts I'm sorry to say, you dont need to know me or anyone else from Adam to know that anyone with the smallest ounce of compassion about them could in no way could intentionally consign another person into such torturous pain, your idea of what is 'heartless' and what is not is unbelivably warped, I pray that your may recognise the vileness of your own words

I'm not sure about all the permutations of the Christian Universalist doctrine (I think there are several perspectives), but it doesn't seem to me that Satan would operate as a "converter" of souls; rather, ultimately, one would hope that he would be among the converted, purified too by the spiritual flames of God's presence that lick all those in the outer darkness.

Dave Miller said:

Hi Aimiel

You bring up a compelling question.

I'll try to clarify with a few propositions statements:

1. Satan is the ruler of Hell
2. Throughout time the majority of people who ever exist will not accept Christ as Lord
and Savior
3. More people will end up in hell than in heavan
4. If hell is a place of Universalist redemption, its logical to assume that more people will
find redemption through Hell and Satan than find redemption through Christ.

Is this a fair summary of your concern, and I'd like to ask Logos and others how they
would respond to this proposition?

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Is that because you don't believe the 'universalist' heresy enough to defend it yourself, or because your itching ears need to consult their heap of teachers, so that you can scratch that itch just the way you like? I already know what they'll say, their brainwashing is complete. I wanted your reply, because you are the one responsible for what you believe. I wanted your reasoning behind this heresy, not some dogma that the clowns have learned by memorizing the litany their heap of teachers has filled their hearts with.

Dave Miller said:

1. Satan is the ruler of Hell

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Where do you get this, Dave? :think:

Solaris said:

Then you have a heart of stone and are another prime example of the hideousness of your own doctrine, if you believe that you could forcibly throw screaming helpless people into a burnig pit then i really am sorry for your spiritual state, would you have been able to throw jews into the gas chambers? Your comments are truly truly sickening and there is no light whatsoever in your posts I'm sorry to say, you dont need to know me or anyone else from Adam to know that anyone with the smallest ounce of compassion about them could in no way could intentionally consign another person into such torturous pain, your idea of what is 'heartless' and what is not is unbelivably warped, I pray that your may recognise the vileness of your own words

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And I pray that (whoever is right) the Truth may triumph, now and always. I wouldn't throw a soul into a gas chamber, in this life, not having the judgement to do so. I would know that the sentence that I was assigned to carry out was bogus, because none of the prisoners have been on trial, much less convicted of anything, other than being alive. Were I to be a prison guard, and was assigned the task of putting those to death who've been convicted of a capital crime, on the other hand, I certainly would do so with the utmost respect for the soul who's been relegated to my care, but I wouldn't give them my 'judgement' of them, or put them down in any way, though a jury of their peers has convicted them to death. I would make use of every opportunity I might have to share The Gospel, while being especially guarded of the ever-present danger of being manipulated or otherwise taken advantage of by those hardened by being the 'outcasts' of society. I would, however, acting under instructions and with the knowledge of the Judgement of The Lord (Whose explicit instructions would be my only 'enabler' to give me the courage to do so) would follow His commands to bring my fellow-human to their final reward. I would also be much more certain that they deserve their fate than even one person who's been convicted and given a death-sentence on this earth, as God's Judgement is impeccable. If you (putting your hand to the plow) want to turn back to admire your own work and not be obedient to The Lord, no matter what He might give you to do; well then, in spite of any evidence to the contrary, you aren't fit for The Kingdom.

Balder said:

I'm not sure about all the permutations of the Christian Universalist doctrine (I think there are several perspectives), but it doesn't seem to me that Satan would operate as a "converter" of souls; rather, ultimately, one would hope that he would be among the converted, purified too by the spiritual flames of God's presence that lick all those in the outer darkness.

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That isn't the design behind hell, nor that of the Lake of Fire. It is for punishment, everlasting, as The Word of God has described.