User Tag List

Page 7 of 21 FirstFirst ... 4567891017 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 306

Thread: ARCHIVE: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

  1. #91
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1012
    Originally posted by aikido7
    [b]Yes--but I did NOT say that "theology" or "stuff about God" is "made up." That's what you presumed I said. That would be a rather unbelievable claim--either on my part or in the Bible itself. That's not my idea of how sacred textual language and inspiration work.[b/]
    You did say that no one cast lots and divided Christ's garments, but that the Gospel writers added that to the account to claim a fulfilled prophesy. (You thereby accuse the Gospel writers of bearing false witness, by the way.)

  2. #92
    Over 2000 post club One Eyed Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    2,093
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    197
    Originally posted by aikido7
    Yes--but I did NOT say that "theology" or "stuff about God" is "made up."
    You said the Gospels contained embellished theology.

    That's what you presumed I said.
    I presumed nothing. I simply took what you said and made the meaning clear.

    That would be a rather unbelievable claim
    I find most of your claims to be quite unbelievable.

    And I stand by them.
    Then why do you try to deny them?

    I do not accept that biblical theologies are "made up"
    Then why do you imply they've had fictitious details added?

    and I do not accept theology as "stuff about God."
    What do you accept as theology then?

    If you think it is deception, you are wrong.
    I don't think so.

    If you do not grasp it, then I have evidently made a feeble attempt to explain how inspriation works, what mythic language is and why Jesus spoke in parables.
    Oh, I grasp what you're saying all right. All too well apparently, judging by how upset you get when I point it out to others.
    Last edited by One Eyed Jack; October 26th, 2003 at 01:34 AM.

  3. #93
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1012
    Aikido, did was Christ actually raised from the dead? Or was that a parable? Or did the Gospel writers add in that detail?

  4. #94
    Over 2000 post club One Eyed Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    2,093
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    197
    Aikido doesn't believe in the bodily Resurrection of Christ.

  5. #95
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1012
    Surprise, surprise!

    Is that right, aikido?

  6. #96
    Over 2000 post club One Eyed Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    2,093
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    197
    He's busy quoting my post, obviously trying to think up some clever argument.

  7. #97
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1012
    I wish he'd take a little more care formatting the quotes.

  8. #98
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In front of the strange glowing screen of an inexplicable mechanism.
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    173063
    Originally posted by Turbo
    To clarify:
    aikido7, you stated,
    You said that this event did not happen, but that the Gospel writers recorded that it did anyway so that they could (falsely) claim a prophesy was fulfilled. Isn't that what you believe?

    By the way, I'm still waiting to hear how everything that is described in Psalm 22 applies to its author.
    You misunderstand the intent of the gospel writers. First of all, they were gospels. Literally, that means "good news." The word "good" implies an evaluation--a judgement. In this case, the judgement comes from different gospel writers. Those who saw Jesus' teachings as harmless would not use the same evaluation. The Romans, generally speaking, certainly didn't.
    So it was "good" only from a particular point of view. Not all people then--good and bad, just and unjust--saw it that way. It's the same today. "News" implies what is in the word itself. New. Fresh. Not yesterday's papers. This is news! Each gospel writer updated that original news (Jesus' teachings) to a new time and a new community. Each of the four gospels were written from about 50 to 80 years after Jesus died. Each gospel writer updated Jesus' timeless message to be available to their own community.

    Did you read the gospels in parallel--side-by-side? Did you note where they deviated from each other and how? Do you think those were just "transcription errors" that caused the differences? I don't believe so.

    Now--I see a difference between making something up and updating a message for a new audience. Creativity is not deception. Inspiration is not channeling. It is spiritual art.

    The Psalms were part of every Jew's mythology and it does not surprise me they were freely used to drive home the point that the Romans treated Jesus like some abomination. Matthew--whose agenda was to make Jesus the "new Moses" anyway and more palatable to mainstream Jews-- used parts of the Hebrew Bible which would resonate with power and turn prophecy into history.

    Otherwise, you have a lot of messy details in the so-called "prophecies" which just do not fit.

    Everything in Psalm 22 applies to what was going on in real time whenever it was written. It tells a story that was partially and selectively pasted into the Passion narratives. It's not that the ancient writers were so dumb and they told these mythological stories--it's that the ancients told creative, myth-filled stories and we got dumb and took them literally.
    ____________________________________
    ...terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich...




    (STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...)

  9. #99
    Over 2000 post club One Eyed Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    2,093
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    197
    Originally posted by Turbo
    I wish he'd take a little more care formatting the quotes.
    I think he formats his stuff weirdly to throw his opponents off in debates. He usually does that after several posts. And my mistake -- he was quoting you, not me.

  10. #100
    Over 2000 post club One Eyed Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    2,093
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    197
    Originally posted by Turbo
    Surprise, surprise!

    Is that right, aikido?
    You can read his own words here.

    Originally posted by aikido7
    Like Paul, I believe the resurrection had nothing to do with Jesus' earthly body. God does not literally "raise bodies up from the dead" or empty the cemeteries. There is a divine constancy and consistency to the natural order.

    No one knows for sure what happens after we die. Human hopes and fears are articulated in our theologies and myths.

    Personally, I think it will either be one of the greatest experiences of all or it will be absolutely nothing.

    Jesus wasn't concerned with heaven. Heaven was in good shape.

  11. #101
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1012
    Originally posted by aikido7
    Everything in Psalm 22 applies to what was going on in real time whenever it was written.
    Yes, you asserted this earlier. Twice I have asked you for details to back up your claim, but so far you have been unresponsive.

  12. #102
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In front of the strange glowing screen of an inexplicable mechanism.
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    173063
    If we look at the gospels themselves--without embellishing them to say what we WANT or WISH them to say--and we were to try to synthesize the gospel stories into a consistent chronology of what actually happened (and I invite you to write a chronolgical account of the resurrection all the way to the ascencion--without leaving out one biblical detail!) we come down to one possible answer: The gospel stories about Easter are not historical accounts but religious myths.

    Now I invite you back, but I don't think you have the time or acumen to stick with such a project. After all, I have heard no feedback whatsoever on a careful parallel reading of the gospels. Any studied look can see that both Matthew and Luke follow Mark's general order of things and both change key details in his version to serve their own agenda.

    We're talking about "news" here--remember? Not yesterday's (Mark's) story but something that will be meaningful and relevant to Matthew and Luke's community of followers. Something that's new--not something stuck in the hill country of Mark.

    And there's more than the Bible, too. Did you ever get curious to look around in your local Christian bookstore? Talk about meaningful and relevant that embellishes on the Bible! Wow!

    These are not clever arguments unless you are literal-minded and suspicious of people who read differently than you do.

    You think you farm people are better than hill people? You and your fancy-pants high-falutin' ways? We know a lot more than you'll EVER know. You just like to look down on us and make fun of us behind our backs. We'll get you sucker!!! You ain't as smart as you think you are with all that them-there book-learnin'. Books! Shee-it! I don't need no books. I don't need to go into town or work on a farm. I just need to stay in the hills like my daddy's family did and his family before him!
    Last edited by aikido7; October 26th, 2003 at 02:12 AM.
    ____________________________________
    ...terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich...




    (STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...)

  13. #103
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1012
    Originally posted by aikido7
    Like Paul, I believe the resurrection had nothing to do with Jesus' earthly body. God does not literally "raise bodies up from the dead" or empty the cemeteries. There is a divine constancy and consistency to the natural order.
    Originally written by Paul
    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    ...Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 12-14
    Paul wrote some strange stuff for a guy who didn't believe Christ was raised from the dead.

  14. #104
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In front of the strange glowing screen of an inexplicable mechanism.
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    173063
    Originally posted by Turbo
    Yes, you asserted this earlier. Twice I have asked you for details to back up your claim, but so far you have been unresponsive.
    From the NIV Study Bible (1985, Zondervan):

    "The Psalter is a collection of collections and represents the final stage in a process that spans centuries. It was put into its final form by postexilic temple personnel, who completed it probably in the third century B.C...In fact, the formation of psalters probably goes back to the early days of the first (Solomon's) temple (or even to the time of David...."

    --page 781

    "The Jewish nature of Matthew's Gospel may suggest that it was written in Palestine, though many think it may have originated in Syrian Antioch. Some have argued on the basis of its Jewish characteristics (italics mine) that it was written...possibly the early part of A.D.50..Accordingly, some feel that Mastthew would have been written in the late 50s or in the 60s....Others (conclude Matthew was written) in the 70s or even later."

    --page1439

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by aikido7
    Everything in Psalm 22 applies to what was going on in real time whenever it was written.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ____________________________________
    ...terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich...




    (STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...)

  15. #105
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In front of the strange glowing screen of an inexplicable mechanism.
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    173063
    You both presume to know what Paul meant and what the term resurrection meant for first-century Jews during the time of Jesus. You both presume that Paul was speaking of a corporeal resurrection when there is no biblical evidence that he thought that at all.

    Have you boys studied the gospels in parallel yet or written down a record to harmonize the resurrection and ascention accounts?
    Last edited by aikido7; October 26th, 2003 at 02:34 AM.
    ____________________________________
    ...terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich...




    (STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us