User Tag List

Page 6 of 21 FirstFirst ... 345678916 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 306

Thread: ARCHIVE: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

  1. #76
    Old Timer LightSon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Denver
    Posts
    490
    Thanks
    28
    Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    5967
    Originally posted by aikido7
    ... I think truth and reality are absolute, but our perspectives on them are malleable. I have only to read the New Testament or these message boards for any evidence of that fact)
    aikido7, Mateo, et al,

    There is an interesting discussion heating up on this topic over here, if you are interested.
    That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.
    Philippians 2:15

  2. #77
    Journeyman Mateo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    The hindermost part of the hill country of Texas
    Posts
    225
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    176
    LightSon,

    Re: "over here". Freelight is a Gnostic. Gnosticism is intellectually intertaining but, at the end of the day, yet one more reiteration of the lie told by Satan in the garden. "Ye shall be as gods" was Satans claim and Gnosticism makes this same claim for itself by being able to bring forth God in man through mental self perfection (Gnosis). Been there and done that before I saw the truth of the word of God. Thanks but no thanks.

    Love,

    Mateo
    FAITH IS AS FAITH DOES---- Forest Gump?
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10576

  3. #78
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1013
    Originally posted by aikido7
    Mark was the first gospel written. Lining up Mark side-by-side with Matthew and Luke, one can clearly see how Matthew and Luke copied Mark's account and changed it to suit their own purposes when they needed to.
    Did you figure this out all on your own, or did you get the idea from "Biblical scholars?"

    There are no "bulls of Bashan," counted bones out of joint, wax hearts, lions' mouths or oxens' horns.
    • Counted bones: Though the legs of the other two being crucified were broken to hasten their deaths, Christ was already dead. Therefore his bones remained whole.(John 19:33) Did you know that Moses commanded that the Passover Lamb's bones must not be broken? And that Jesus, whom John the Baptist called "the Lamb of God," was crucified at the time of the Passover feast when the Jews were slaughtering their lambs?
    • Bones out of joint: Do you suppose that being crucified might cause one's bones to be "out of joint?"
    • Wax heart: "It has melted within Me." In response to this verse, I cited John 19:34, which says that shortly after Jesus died he was stabbed with a spear, and blood and water came out. ("I am poured out like water.") This is an indication that Christ died of congestive heart failure.

      For more information, click here and read the text under the heading, The Spearing in the Side.
    • Lionís mouth and oxens' horns.

      12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
      Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
      13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
      Like a raging and roaring lion.

      21 Save Me from the lion's mouth
      And from the horns of the wild oxen!

      As with the dogs, the oxen/bulls and lion apparently refer to those surrounding Christ on the cross, but Iím not sure about the specifics. (If anyone has any insights, please let me know.)


    All those motifs are relevant to the author of the Psalm.
    How so? Please elaborate.

    The gospel writers often "poured over scripture" to find commonalities they could apply to or transfer into to present events to give them cultural and theological weight.

    This was a common practice and has nothing to do with factuality and history and has everything to do with mythology and theological truth. The gambling for the garmets and the other small details were added into the story of the crucifixion.
    How do you know? Where are the written eye-witness accounts that support this assertion?

    We don't believe in the power of Christ because of prophecies, do we? We believe because Jesus, for us, shows us a glimpse of God Himself.
    Jesus said,

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17


    For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. John 5:46

    Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:33-35

    But you probably think Matthew and John was fibbing about that, too.

  4. #79
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In front of the strange glowing screen of an inexplicable mechanism.
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    173064
    Originally posted by Turbo
    Did you figure this out all on your own, or did you get the idea from "Biblical scholars?"
    To understand the differenct perspectives, it really helps to do your own, reasearch. Those who have a fear of "worldly knowledge," "biblical scholarship," or the general fear of moderity that most all fundamentalists of every faith harbor and nurture, the period at the end of this sentence is probably the best place to exit any journey in a search for truth.

    My father directed me to get a red, blue and green marker. As I remember, I used a green-covered, extra Gideon Bible we had lying around the house. Read the gospels side-by-side (this is so you can carefully compare them and actually get a real "heads up" on what is actually THERE in Scripture. Use the color red, say, to mark agreements (and this is literal agreements by the way), between Matthew and Mark. Use blue to show agreements between Mark and Luke; green for agreements between Matthew and Luke. Use any combination of two colors for agreements among all three. For a deeper, "scholarly" view, you can use dotted lines to show agreements in word, word root or substantial agreement (other than literal).

    If you can do this quietly and without interruptions, it can be a great experience. Can you argue with anything that can bring you closer to God's word, Turbo? To me deep study like this becomes prayer; it is so much more useful to have a relationship with scripture unmediated by men's (earnest though they may be) unmeaningful gloss on the New Testament.

    • Counted bones: Though the legs of the other two being crucified were broken to hasten their deaths, Christ was already dead. Therefore his bones remained whole.(John 19:33) Did you know that Moses commanded that the Passover Lamb's bones must not be broken? And that Jesus, whom John the Baptist called "the Lamb of God," was crucified at the time of the Passover feast when the Jews were slaughtering their lambs?

      MY REPLY:We need to be aware of the uniqueness of the Fourth Gospel, when it was written and why and some of the insights of his special vision. Because John is more heavily theological than the other three, it should not be taken as literally. If you carefully read John opposite the synoptical gospels, you can clearly see that the tone, the chronology, Jesus' style of teaching and his message are often flatly contradicted by the other three accounts.

      Since part of John's agenda was to show Jesus as the "unblemished lamb" of the Passover sacrifice (and why John's dating of the crucifixion nearly 24 hours before the other three gospels report should not engender feelings of alarm or threat. We need to celebrate the diversity in the New Testament as examples of how God's inspiration works in the world--differently to different times and people. A bit of common sense swimming is a great antidote to the belief that we must always stand on the world's shore, never bathing in the waters of our Creator.

    • Bones out of joint: Do you suppose that being crucified might cause one's bones to be "out of joint?"

      see above
    • Wax heart: "It has melted within Me." In response to this verse, I cited John 19:34, which says that shortly after Jesus died he was stabbed with a spear, and blood and water came out. ("I am poured out like water.") This is an indication that Christ died of congestive heart failure.

      MY REPLY:In my opinion, you are literalizing the spiritual--actually, what anthropologists call "concretizing" the idea so it can be more accessible to you. There's nothing good or bad about such literalizing; in some cases it is useful to KNOW you are literalizing the spiritual meaning of the Bible.

      For more information, click here and read the text under the heading, The Spearing in the Side.
    • Lionís mouth and oxens' horns.

      12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
      Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
      13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
      Like a raging and roaring lion.

      21 Save Me from the lion's mouth
      And from the horns of the wild oxen!

      As with the dogs, the oxen/bulls and lion apparently refer to those surrounding Christ on the cross, but Iím not sure about the specifics. (If anyone has any insights, please let me know.)


    How so? Please elaborate.

    How do you know? Where are the written eye-witness accounts that support this assertion?

    Jesus said,

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17


    For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. John 5:46

    Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:33-35

    But you probably think Matthew and John was fibbing about that, too. [/QUOTE]

    MY REPLY:It is a very popular error to think that because written tradition is changed or adapted through time, then it must be "lies." this is a secular way of looking at it. All I can say is my opinion here, of course, but I am not the only one who knows this about ancient narrative style and probably any of those evil, worldly biblical scholars you fear to tread with would agree--plus lots of anthropolgists and generalists who know this as well. I remeber going to a tribal story-telling session (I live in the Northwest, so there are many, many Indian--or Native American or whatever--tribes) and the narrator said something like "The story I am going to tell you is true--and some of it really happened!"

    In other words, metaphorical narratives can be profoundly true, even though not literally factual. We really need to do some "non-secular" study of what metaphor, myth, and parable ACTUALLY mean. Does that make sense to you? Only then can we get closer to reading the Bible on ITS terms rather than through lenses we have been conditioned to wear. These were first-century writers. This is not worldly biography. The gospels were faith documents and--as such--contained a complex blend of remembered history and embellished theology
    Last edited by aikido7; October 25th, 2003 at 01:17 PM.
    ____________________________________
    ...terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich...




    (STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...)

  5. #80
    Just livin' life one day at a time. Poly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    6,582
    Thanks
    23
    Thanked 453 Times in 231 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)





    Rep Power
    409714
    aikido7's motto: "If you don't like it, spiritualize it."
    "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" - Ronald Reagan



    Check out the "rightest" of all right wing moms. FarRightMom


    Upgrade your TOL membership.

  6. #81
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In front of the strange glowing screen of an inexplicable mechanism.
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    173064
    ...then let's just say that when John says Jesus is "the Lamb of God" then Mary must have "had a little lamb?"

    Poly, Poly, Poly!
    ____________________________________
    ...terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich...




    (STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...)

  7. #82
    Over 2000 post club One Eyed Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    2,093
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    198
    Originally posted by aikido7
    In other words, metaphorical narratives can be profoundly true, even though not literally factual. We really need to do some "non-secular" study of what metaphor, myth, and parable ACTUALLY mean. Does that make sense to you? Only then can we get closer to reading the Bible on ITS terms rather than through lenses we have been conditioned to wear. These were first-century writers. This is not worldly biography. The gospels were faith documents and--as such--contained a complex blend of remembered history and embellished theology
    In other words, all that stuff about God was made up. This is what aikido7 is trying to get people to believe, without coming straight out and saying it.

  8. #83
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In front of the strange glowing screen of an inexplicable mechanism.
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    173064
    What specific "stuff" about God was made up? How do you presume privy to what I am doing? "Trying to get people to believe?" To BELIEVE??? Where specifically did I say THAT?

    Unfortunately, you missed the point. Fortunately, for you, you are obviously unaware of missing it.
    ____________________________________
    ...terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich...




    (STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...)

  9. #84
    Over 2000 post club One Eyed Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    2,093
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    198
    Originally posted by aikido7
    What specific "stuff" about God was made up?
    You tell me -- that's what you're trying to say.

    How do you presume privy to what I am doing?
    I presume nothing. It's obvious what you're doing.

    "Trying to get people to believe?" To BELIEVE??? Where specifically did I say THAT?
    You didn't have to.

    Unfortunately, you missed the point. Fortunately, for you, you are obviously unaware of missing it.
    I don't think so.

  10. #85
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In front of the strange glowing screen of an inexplicable mechanism.
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    173064
    Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
    You tell me -- that's what you're trying to say.
    That's not what I am trying to say. Tell me, specifically, what leads you to presume I am "making stuff up" about God?

    I presume nothing. It's obvious what you're doing.
    How do you presume that what I am doing is obvious? No grand generalities here--be explicit and unambiguous....(if you are able!)

    You didn't have to.
    If I "didn't have to," then you need to take me more literally. And it would be nice if you would answer specifically and literally as well. Again:

    "Where and what, specficially, did I say in my post that led you to presume I did not have to say anything about 'getting people to believe.' ?"

    I don't think so.
    Well then I must be mistaken. You obviously ARE aware of missing it. Confessing ignorance is not easy. Good for you!
    ____________________________________
    ...terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich...




    (STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...)

  11. #86
    Over 2000 post club One Eyed Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    2,093
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    198
    Originally posted by aikido7
    That's not what I am trying to say. Tell me, specifically, what leads you to presume I am "making stuff up" about God?
    I never said you were making stuff up about God. You're the one claiming that the theology (stuff about God) contained in the Gospels is embellished (made up).

    How do you presume that what I am doing is obvious?
    I presume nothing. All I have to do is read your posts to see what you're doing.

  12. #87
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In front of the strange glowing screen of an inexplicable mechanism.
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    173064
    Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
    I never said you were making stuff up about God. You're the one claiming that the theology (stuff about God) contained in the Gospels is embellished (made up).

    I presume nothing. All I have to do is read your posts to see what you're doing.
    I never said that. You presume to embellish and make up what I said. And presuming "to know what I'm doing" by selectively or superficially reading what I posted on a message board is laughable.
    ____________________________________
    ...terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich...




    (STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...)

  13. #88
    Over 2000 post club One Eyed Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    2,093
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    198
    Originally posted by aikido7
    I never said that.
    Yes, you did.

    Originally posted by aikido7
    The gospels were faith documents and--as such--contained a complex blend of remembered history and embellished theology
    Those are your own words.

    You presume to embellish and make up what I said. And presuming "to know what I'm doing" by selectively or superficially reading what I posted on a message board is laughable.
    Once again -- I presume nothing. Your feeble attempts at deception are transparent.

  14. #89
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1013
    To clarify:
    aikido7, you stated,
    The gambling for the garmets and the other small details were added into the story of the crucifixion.
    You said that this event did not happen, but that the Gospel writers recorded that it did anyway so that they could (falsely) claim a prophesy was fulfilled. Isn't that what you believe?

    By the way, I'm still waiting to hear how everything that is described in Psalm 22 applies to its author.

  15. #90
    Over 3000 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In front of the strange glowing screen of an inexplicable mechanism.
    Posts
    3,641
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 43 Times in 43 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    173064
    quote:
    Originally posted by aikido7
    "I never said that."

    Yes, you did.

    quote:
    Originally posted by aikido7
    "The gospels were faith documents and--as such--contained a complex blend of remembered history and embellished theology"

    Yes--but I did NOT say that "theology" or "stuff about God" is "made up." That's what you presumed I said. That would be a rather unbelievable claim--either on my part or in the Bible itself. That's not my idea of how sacred textual language and inspiration work.


    Those are your own words.

    And I stand by them. But I will not accept that biblical theologies are "made up" and I do not accept theology as "stuff about God." I see embellished (focused, embroidered, changed and/or improved upon) as quite a different thing than "making stuff up." The latter would fall into the category of the usual secular notions about "myth." And I think the word "stuff" is crude and demeans theology and ultimately, God.

    quote:
    "You presume to embellish and make up what I said. And presuming "to know what I'm doing" by selectively or superficially reading what I posted on a message board is laughable."

    Once again -- I presume nothing. Your feeble attempts at deception are transparent

    If you think it is deception, you are wrong. I am not here to deceive. I will be glad to answer your questions and try to explain it to you. If you don't agree that the Bible is not all literal, then just say so--let your yes be a yes or your no be a no. If you do not grasp the richness in the text, the form of ancient religious writing and the details of the New Testament , then I have evidently made a feeble attempt to explain how inspriation works, what mythic language is and why Jesus spoke in parables.

    Myth is the world view. Mythic language is the culture (this includes institutions, art, language, dress, habits of relationship, social hierarchies, etc. etc.) which demonstrate that world view day after day. In people's lives. It is like the water that surrounds the fish and sustains it.

    Parable undercuts and ultimately subverts myth.
    Last edited by aikido7; October 26th, 2003 at 01:28 AM.
    ____________________________________
    ...terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich...




    (STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us