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Thread: ARCHIVE: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

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    Originally posted by Mateo
    "Responded to in the Immanent God thread, which was previously
    requested by others as well.

    take care,

    Dave"



    Well, gee..... that was edifying.
    Hi Mateo,

    You're right, I should have responded to you directly, my apologies.

    Regarding my thinking of Jesus Christ as Immanent God, those
    thoughts are in the other thread. But regarding your statements,
    I believe that 7th Day Adventists talk about the
    usurping of Christianity by Pagan culture, others do as well,
    so you're not alone in your assessment.

    However, regarding Christ as God. Not something that's
    easily justified through Scripture, except perhaps through
    the Gospel of John, and again there as Immanent God, still
    distinct in some ways from the Father.

    That's another argument I choose not to engage in because
    I have no proof, only a witness. Christ as Immanent God was
    a revelation and a leap of faith for me, not an intellectual
    conclusion. It was after I made that leap that other things
    started making sense.

    Take Care,

    Dave

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    Gotcha Mr. Dave,

    Later

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    Originally posted by Mateo
    15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be A (thats singular good buddy)resurrection of the dead, BOTH (that's plural good buddy) of the just and unjust.
    This verse still does not say that the dead will be resurrected at the same time, which is what my point was. Otherwise, I agree with you.
    In case of Rapture, I'll be on Eternity Leave.

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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Mateo
    15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be A (thats singular good buddy)resurrection of the dead, BOTH (that's plural good buddy) of the just and unjust.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    This verse still does not say that the dead will be resurrected at the same time, which is what my point was. Otherwise, I agree with you.


    Okey dokey,

    The word says after one or two admonitions let 'em go.

    Number 2:

    2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
    9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
    10 For we must ALL appear before THE judgment seat of Christ; that EVERY ONE may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be GOOD OR BAD.

    Oh yea, by the way, If you'll read Rev 20 reeeeeeeal close you'll see that if you didn't die (as in be murdered) for the word of God or go through the great trib you will not be a part of the first resurrection and you will appear before the judgment seat of Christ ,whether ya done good or bad. Dig?

    Done my best. Hope ya got ears.

    Love

    Mateo

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    Originally posted by Mateo
    2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
    9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
    10 For we must ALL appear before THE judgment seat of Christ; that EVERY ONE may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be GOOD OR BAD.

    Mateo
    But see, you are proving my point. "We" may be accepted of Him, does that include the wicked? If not, this is the Bema Seat judgment. Do the wicked want to be present with the Lord? You need to look at the context. Paul wasn't speaking of all humanity, just the believers.

    Best regards.
    In case of Rapture, I'll be on Eternity Leave.

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Mateo
    2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
    9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
    10 For we must ALL appear before THE judgment seat of Christ; that EVERY ONE may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be GOOD OR BAD.

    Mateo
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    But see, you are proving my point. "We" may be accepted of Him, does that include the wicked? If not, this is the Bema Seat judgment. Do the wicked want to be present with the Lord? You need to look at the context. Paul wasn't speaking of all humanity, just the believers.

    Best regards.


    Okay God,

    You said in the mouth of two or three witnesses is a thing established so if it's okay with you I'll try one more time, If It's okay with you just don't say anything.

    God:............


    Mateo: Cool.


    Otay Mr. Quasar:

    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


    Again, one judgement of both the good and the bad. What makes you reject this notion my friend?

    Love,

    Mateo

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    Mateo, where do you say the final judgment takes place: on Earth, or in the heavenly realm?
    In case of Rapture, I'll be on Eternity Leave.

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    Quasar asked:

    Mateo, where do you say the final judgment takes place: on Earth, or in the heavenly realm?


    Mateo says:

    I was about to reply to this reflexively but something made me grab the Bible and double check. Glad I did...

    Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


    If I understand what I am reading here correctly, the answer to your question is... neither.


    I love it when I learn. That's why I'm here. Thanks Quasar.

    Mateo
    Last edited by Mateo; September 28th, 2003 at 11:34 AM.

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    Originally posted by Mateo
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Mateo
    2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
    9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
    10 For we must ALL appear before THE judgment seat of Christ; that EVERY ONE may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be GOOD OR BAD.

    Mateo
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    But see, you are proving my point. "We" may be accepted of Him, does that include the wicked? If not, this is the Bema Seat judgment. Do the wicked want to be present with the Lord? You need to look at the context. Paul wasn't speaking of all humanity, just the believers.

    Best regards.


    Okay God,

    You said in the mouth of two or three witnesses is a thing established so if it's okay with you I'll try one more time, If It's okay with you just don't say anything.

    God:............


    Mateo: Cool.


    Otay Mr. Quasar:

    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


    Again, one judgement of both the good and the bad. What makes you reject this notion my friend?

    Love,

    Mateo
    Given the importance of two or three witnesses, I'll back you
    on this Mateo. This Scripture is truth.

    Dave

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    "Given the importance of two or three witnesses, I'll back you
    on this Mateo. This Scripture is truth.

    Dave"


    Dave,

    My little portion of the spirit of truth salutes your little portion

    Love,

    Mateo

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    Post MATEO

    (Gal 3:24 KJV) "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

    (Gal 3:25 KJV) "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

    We learned the Foundation of the knowledge of God and

    His Requirements of Man from the Old Testament and

    build our Faith on Christ from that knowledge.

    Without the knowledge and references of the Old Testament,

    we would find it hard to Believe who JESUS really was .



    Last edited by OMEGA; October 3rd, 2003 at 03:23 PM.
    GOD HAS PROMISED US IMMORTALITY

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    Yeah Buddy!

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    Re: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

    The following is the first half or so of Pslam 22, written approximately 1000 years before Christ was born. Also, it should be noted that the first historical record of crucifixion is from the 6th century B.C., so it is likely that this psalm was written hundreds of years before anyone was ever crucified.

    Studying this Psalm was one of the final steps that convinced me that the Bible is true, and that Jesus is who He says He is. I can think of no other rational conclusion, given the content of this psalm. To anyone who is unsure whether the Bible truly is the Word of God or simply a collection of books written by men, please take a few minutes to read this study of Psalm 22.




    (Psalm 22:
    1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
    Why are You so far from helping Me,
    And from the words of My groaning?

    Matthew 27:46
    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?

    Mark 15:34
    And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"


    _________________________________

    Mark was the first gospel written. Lining up Mark side-by-side with Matthew and Luke, one can clearly see how Matthew and Luke copied Mark's account and changed it to suit their own purposes when they needed to.

    Mark knew Jesus was crucified and used the Old Testament verse to show the agony Jesus must have gone through. After all, during the time Mark was written, the temple had been destroyed and Jews were being killed by the Romans in the war. Mark's community no doubt felt that God had indeed "forsaken" them. It would make perfect sense to write about a Jesus who was suffering along with Mark's community.

    Rather than prophecy turning into history, this was history turned into prophecy by the gospel writers.

    Mark's Jesus dies forsaken. John's Jesus dies in total control. An entire Roman legion falls down at his feet. Instead of wanting to avoid the bitter cup, John's Jesus asks for it. At the moment of death he declares "It is finished." Clearly, John's Jesus is in total control and things are being fulfilled right on schedule.

    Notice that there is nothing in the gospels that hints at Jesus crying in the daytime and no one hearing and being less than silent in the nightime. Jesus, nor anyone else, compares himself to "a worm" in the New Testament. And clearly, "ALL" those who saw him DID NOT ridicule him. There are no "bulls of Bashan," counted bones out of joint, wax hearts, lions' mouths or oxens' horns.

    All those motifs are relevant to the author of the Psalm. The gospel writers often "poured over scripture" to find commonalities they could apply to or transfer into to present events to give them cultural and theological weight.

    This was a common practice and has nothing to do with factuality and history and has everything to do with mythology and theological truth. The gambling for the garmets and the other small details were added into the story of the crucifixion. The idea was not to tell lies but to point to spiritual truths.

    We don't believe in the power of Christ because of prophecies, do we? We believe because Jesus, for us, shows us a glimpse of God Himself.
    ____________________________________
    ...terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich...




    (STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...)

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    I for one believe that Jesus literally said those words on the
    Cross. I don't think this illustrates the prophesy of the Psalm so
    much as how in touch with the Psalms Jesus was, which He oft
    quoted. Like many people, Jesus let Scripture do His talking
    for Him when appropriate.

    This quote from Jesus is a stumbling block for many in understanding
    Christ as God in the flesh, after all, why would Jesus call out His
    utter sense of forsakenness if He was in fact God?

    I think I said it before, I see this as an expression of His solidarity
    with the suffering of humanity. Its also a demonstration of how
    we as people can find the strength to deal with the lowest times of
    our lives, by openly and honestly sharing our feelings with God, and
    by remembering the great things God hath done both in Scripture
    and in our lives. This helps us to hold onto the faith we need to
    make it through the worst, lonliest, most painful experiences of our
    lives.

    Dave
    1 John 4:7-8 "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love."

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    Sounds like one or two folk have embraced theologies that preclude the plain implications contained in the 22nd Psalm. May I suggest that instead of twisting the meaning of Psa 22 to conform to your theology, you instead adjust your theology to conform to what Psa 22 says.

    Love,

    Mateo
    FAITH IS AS FAITH DOES---- Forest Gump?
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10576

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