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Thread: ARCHIVE: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22

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    Over 500 post club OMEGA's Avatar
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    Post TURBO

    You forgot this one.

    (Joel 2:28 KJV) "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

    (Acts 2:17 KJV) "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

    (Acts 2:18 KJV) "And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    PEOPLE GET READY FOR THAT DAY IS COMING !

    GOD HAS PROMISED US IMMORTALITY

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    Hi LightSon,

    These prophecies were uniquely fulfilled by the Lord Jesus. I don’t understand how anyone (including an atheist) could consider this love of Christ for us and not be moved to surrender. Why are they so entrenched in darkness? Perhaps the Evil One has blinded them.
    Well being the Bible Illiterate that I am I can't really comment of Bible prophecies. Before I can accept any scriptures I need to find the human soul. Maybe that's a strange thing on my part, I think it comes from the reading I've done on the human brain.

    Until I can find some indestructible part to us all the scriptures in the world are meaningless to me. Think about it, if there is no continuation after our physical bodies die then what meaning can any scripture possibly have other than to give us certain insights in this life? And if that's all scripture can do then who cares? I can go to my local bookstore and find books by the hundreds that will give me insights into this life...

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    Re: Psalm 22,

    To paraphrase Spurgeon, "When reading Psalm 22 one should remove one's shoes, for if there is holy ground anywhere in the Bible, it is here".

    I refrain from reading this Psalm in public to save myself the embarassment of public crying.

    I can only shake my head in disbelief everytime I hear some learned theologian utter the canard that Jesus said what He did on the cross because God, who could not look upon sin, had turned His back on His Son. What utter compost.
    Last edited by Mateo; September 8th, 2003 at 07:51 AM.

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    Old Timer LightSon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ferelixe
    Until I can find some indestructible part to us all the scriptures in the world are meaningless to me. Think about it, if there is no continuation after our physical bodies die then what meaning can any scripture possibly have other than to give us certain insights in this life? And if that's all scripture can do then who cares? I can go to my local bookstore and find books by the hundreds that will give me insights into this life...
    Greetings Ferelixe,
    You are correct in observing that "if there is no continuation after our physical bodies die," then scripture has little or no value. We do have a non-corporeal aspect to us, but you will not find it in a test tube.

    In the oldest book of the Bible, Job said
    Job 19:25,26
    For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
    Here Job was expressing faith in God and God’s power over death. The resurrection of Christ is such a demonstration. The death of our bodies is not the final word.

    All throughout the Bible, God holds out to us the promise of life and of spending eternity with Him. Because God has demonstrated His power over sin and of death, I know, like Job, that God has the power to raise me up too despite the fact that “worms [will] destroy this body”.

    Consider the New Testament record. In Christ’s darkest hour, Peter denied Him and went out into the darkness. What was it that Peter later saw that convinced him to “buck up”, change course and take on perilous challenges. Peter and 9 of the other disciples became stalwarts for Christ and eventually gave their lives for His cause. A man might give His life in hopes that he believes the truth. But what man would give his life for that which he knows to be a lie? Peter saw Christ executed and laid in a tomb. Why would Peter die to perpetuate a lie, if he knew Christ was dead? This is a question skeptics stumble over to answer. A man might lie to perpetuate a lie for gain. But when faced with the sword, such a lie looses value quickly.

    Peter said,
    2nd Peter 1:16
    For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty
    Peter saw the risen Christ, and it changed his life forever.

    Study the scriptures. In them you will see that you were created for more than just this short and often unsatisfying physical life. God reveals His mind in the Bible. If you study His Word diligently, He will reveal His truth to you.
    That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.
    Philippians 2:15

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    Old Timer LightSon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mateo
    Re: Psalm 22,

    To paraphrase Spurgeon, "When reading Psalm 22 one should remove one's shoes, for if there is holy ground anywhere in the Bible, it is here".

    I refrain from reading this Psalm in public to save myself the embarassment of public crying.

    I can only shake my head in disbelief everytime I hear some learned theologian utter the canard that Jesus said what He did on the cross because God, who could not look upon sin, had turned His back on His Son. What utter compost.
    I don't really understand your objections Mateo.

    Jesus cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

    Since you reject the standard explanation, I have two questions for you.

    Did God forsake Jesus while He was on the cross? and if so, why would God do that?
    That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.
    Philippians 2:15

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    LightSon,

    I do not believe God turned His back on His Son at the cross. This notion gained some currency in several of the patented answer factories (seminaries, cemetaries, whatever) by those who either could not or would not make the connection between what Jesus uttered on the cross and the first line of Psalm 22. Jesus was pointing any and all to the Psalm which spoke of the cross so long before He was ever nailed to it. He was not lamenting the absense of His omnipresent Father or His gaze.

    Concerning the notion that God cannot look upon sin and turned His back on His Son because of it, I leave you with the following verses:

    Psa 90:8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.

    Prov 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

    John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

  7. #22
    Old Timer LightSon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mateo
    I do not believe God turned His back on His Son at the cross. ..... Jesus was pointing any and all to the Psalm which spoke of the cross so long before He was ever nailed to it. He was not lamenting the absense of His omnipresent Father or His gaze.
    Thanks for your response Mateo.
    But you all too carefully skirted my question.

    Jesus said, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

    Did God forsake Jesus in any way?
    If you say "no", then you must be also saying that Jesus was wrong or had a false perception. Certainly Jesus was trying to communicate more than just a "link" to Psalm 22.


    Originally posted by Mateo
    Concerning the notion that God cannot look upon sin and turned His back on His Son because of it, I leave you with the following verses:

    Psa 90:8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.

    Prov 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

    John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
    Fair enough. You've quoted some scripture to support your contention. How about this verse?

    Habakkuk 1:13
    "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity..."

    There are very good theological reasons, why Jesus needed to experience "separation" from the Father and the Spirit (hence "my God, my God"). Jesus was experiencing spiritual death, on our behalf, and due to our sin being placed upon Him.
    Praise His Holy name.

    Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

    Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, "

    If you are quibbling about the notion of God "turning His back" on Christ, then fine. Will you agree that God "smote" Christ because Jesus bore our sins in His own body on the tree?
    That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.
    Philippians 2:15

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    Beloved LightSon,

    I would not presume to disagree that God's Son was indeed bruised for our transgressions. This was not my assertion. The issue was, and I quote:

    "Did God forsake Jesus while He was on the cross?".

    I answered this as straightforward as I could, to whit:

    "I do not believe God turned His back on His Son at the cross."

    To which you replied:

    "Thanks for your response Mateo.
    But you all too carefully skirted my question."

    I'm sorry my friend but I can't make it any plainer than that.

    You offered a partial scripture as an justifcation for what would appear to be your allegance to the notion that God turned His back on His Son on the cross due to an inability to behold sin. In quoting the word of God you used an elipsis to avoid quoting the entire verse to which you referred. It has been my experience that when this is done in justification of a doctrine that those who use this practice generally wish to call attention away from the rest of what is said in the verse so quoted. Let's have a look, shall we?:

    Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

    Ooooops! The guy that is not supposed to be looking at this sort of thing is being asked why he does. Context is everything, don't you agree?

    In the love of the Lord,

    Mateo

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    Mateo

    Do you belive that God will turn his back on sinners on Judgement day??

    If you do and you belive that Jesus bore your judgement on the cross then it seems quite logical that GOd turned his back on Jesus instead of you.

    Also why else would Jesus say it unless it was true.

    "I have been crucified with Christ" Galatians 2:20
    "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." - Hebrews 1:7

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    Fireball asked:

    "Do you belive that God will turn his back on sinners on Judgement day??"

    Mateo wonders:

    Which judgement are you referring to?

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    The great throne judgement not the judgement for rewards.
    "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." - Hebrews 1:7

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    Not sure I've heard about a "rewards" judgement. Sounds like you are referring to the "white throne" judgement of Revelation 20. Those that are judged then are judged on their deeds (the books) and their affiliation with Jesus (the Lambs book of life) if I understand what I have read correctly.

    As to your original question, being a sinner myself, if I am to participate in this judgement it is my sincere hope that God will not turn His back on me at this time nor do I think His word indicates that He will.

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    I agree entirely. No God wont turn his back on you at the white throne judgement as he will everyone who hasn't belived in Jesus because he has already turn his back on you, and this is why Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?" because he was bearing your judgement.
    "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." - Hebrews 1:7

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    I'm sorry I'm not following your logic well enough to be able to embrace it. I think you are confusing atonement for our sins with judgement, two different things in my mind. This thread is starting to get interesting. A pity I must leave to attend to my days labor. More later perhaps?

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    Well atonement for our sins is so that we are not judged.

    If there was no atonement there would be no redemption.

    We are saved by grace through faith.

    We are not all automatically saved. We are all sinners and will be judged accordingly but we can escape judgmeny by grace (the finished work of Christ) through faith.
    "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." - Hebrews 1:7

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