User Tag List

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 86

Thread: toldailytopic: Is lying to an animal immoral?

  1. #31
    Over 3000 post club zoo22's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    3,057
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 133 Times in 128 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    713498
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditio View Post
    To lie is to express a falsehood with the intention of deceiving (or something like that). In order to deceive someone, you pass off an untruth for truth. But in order to conceive of something is true, you must have an intellect, the very formal object of which is truth.

    Animals aren't rational beings. They don't have intellects. They can't be deceived in the strictest sense.
    Sure they are, sure they do, and sure they can.

    Obviously you can too. Be deceived, I mean. In fact, you seem to do it to yourself all the time.
    "There was so much handwriting on the wall that even the wall fell down"

    "In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only sure weapon against bad ideas is better ideas. The source of better ideas is wisdom. The surest path to wisdom is a liberal education." Alfred Whitney, Essays on Education

    Don't you know
    That it ain't a crime
    If all the squares
    And the junkmen
    Think you're out of line


    TH:

  2. #32
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    5,215
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 263 Times in 217 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    86980
    Quote Originally Posted by Inzl Kett View Post
    [COLOR=seagreen]One has to be able to reason to understand the concept of lying, something that the animal kingdom altogether lacks. There is a qualitative difference between humans and animals, not just quantitative. They are made in the image of God, enabling them to understand concepts such as lying.
    Apes are quite capable of inferring mental states in others, and taking advantage of them. Apes having been trained to use sign language frequently lie when they think they might be in trouble.

    Carl Sagan recounts the chimp, who when asked who urinated on the lab floor, blamed a human researcher.

    And Koko, a gorilla capable of signing, once told a handler that the cat pulled a sink off the wall.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  3. #33
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    5,523
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 19 Times in 18 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    toldailytopic: Is lying to an animal immoral?



    you mean like telling a tiger you're going to push it out of an airplane to see if human morals apply to it and then not doing it?

  4. #34
    Over 2500 post club
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    2,678
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 62 Times in 58 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    219704
    Quote Originally Posted by zoo22 View Post
    Sure they are, sure they do, and sure they can.
    "Rational animal" is the definition of a human being. If you claim that animals are rational, have intellects, and can be deceived, you're basically saying that they're human beings. But maybe "rational" and "intellect" is ambiguous.

    It's come to my attention that, apparently, rational may mean "problem solving" in modern terms. Certainly I'll grant that animals have a problem solving capacity, and St. Thomas calls this "the estimative power," which is called "particular reason" in human beings, the power according to which we perceive particulars as particulars, and also as objects of appetition, avoidance or neither.

    Thus, if a dog jumps onto a person's lap, he perceives the person's lap as being, for example, "sittable," desirable for this reason, and seeks out the lap as an object of appetition.

    But "rational" or "intellect" in the sense that I mean it (and the two terms, I think, are not entirely identical) refer to the knowing faculty. It's that according to which we know the truth. The intellect grasps:

    1. What things are
    2. The "to be" of things that are

    So the formal object of the intellect is being. When the intellect is speculative, it conceives of being as true. When the intellect is practical, it conceives of being as good.

    When the intellect conceives of essences, it conceives the universal: "caninity as such," "horseness as such," "humanity as such." The universal is immaterial and only can be present in an immaterial intellect. As St. Thomas Aquinas argues, the intellect has a potentially infinite range of knowing; thus, the intellect can't be the act of a corporeal body, since this would limit the range of the intellect's act.

    Thus, we know that the intellectual soul is separable from the body (it continues both in its existence and its operation (it's act of knowing) even after the death of the body).

    None of these things are true of brute animals. A dog doesn't sit around contemplating "horseness as such," nor does a dog have an immortal intellectual soul.

    Obviously you can too. Be deceived, I mean. In fact, you seem to do it to yourself all the time.
    Are you sore with me for some reason? Have I offended you in some way?
    "If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I do assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins 'you shall receive a never fading crown of glory.' [2] Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in Hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practise black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and save your soul, if----and mark well what I say----if you say the Holy Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon for your sins" (St. Louis Marie de Montfort, Secret of the Rosary, Red Rose).

  5. #35
    Over 1500 post club lovemeorhateme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Eastbourne, UK
    Posts
    1,828
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 151 Times in 130 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    193723
    How exactly does one 'lie' to an animal?



    At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Winner of TOL Post of the Year 2012

  6. #36
    Over 4000 post club IMJerusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Appalachian foothills of Ohio
    Posts
    4,191
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 91 Times in 71 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    98962
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Oh! You mean those kind of animals. Boy did I miss the whole point of this thread!

    Nah, I was just funnin! Umm, hurt your head?
    I AM the pie lady!!


  7. #37
    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    14,241
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 1,179 Times in 1,012 Posts

    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    605663
    Quote Originally Posted by Inzl Kett View Post
    Unusual Question. One has to be able to reason to understand the concept of lying, something that the animal kingdom altogether lacks. There is a qualitative difference between humans and animals, not just quantitative. They are made in the image of God, enabling them to understand concepts such as lying. An animal, even a dolphin is not going to understand that you told it a lie. Animals live for procreation and eating. Smarter ones enjoy play. They are not emotionally impacted by moral concepts such as lying. Banjo the dog only knows you didn't put out his doggie dish. He doesn't know you promised to do it and didn't. Lying to an animal-loopy, but not immoral.
    Well said Inzl.

    Since animals don't understand words, only the tone of voice that those words are used in, you would only be lying to yourself if you made an animal a promise.
    My dad was a dog trainer, he'd shout out commands in Spanish and get the same results as when he did in English. (Maybe the dogs were bilingual?).
    Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
    Galatians 4:16

  8. #38
    LIFETIME MEMBER vegascowboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Somewhere on the prairie...
    Posts
    1,883
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 104 Times in 100 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    99356
    Quote Originally Posted by lovemeorhateme View Post
    How exactly does one 'lie' to an animal?

    Example. Telling a dog it is cute when it looks like THIS:

    The L-rd bless you and keep you;
    The L-rd make his face shine upon you,
    And be gracious to you;
    The L-rd lift up his countenance upon you,
    And give you peace.



    Abortion is murder. Period.

  9. #39
    Silver Member glorydaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    14,065
    Thanks
    4,281
    Thanked 19,186 Times in 9,611 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147691
    Quote Originally Posted by vegascowboy View Post
    Example. Telling a dog it is cute when it looks like THIS:

    Whoa....I really don't think I could bring myself to tell that big a whopper.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to glorydaz For Your Post:

    LoneStar (April 10th, 2016),Tambora (April 10th, 2016)

  11. #40
    Over 3000 post club zoo22's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    3,057
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked 133 Times in 128 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    713498
    Quote Originally Posted by lovemeorhateme View Post
    How exactly does one 'lie' to an animal?

    You deceive them. Make them understand something that isn't true. Animals can understand things we tell them, and animals put their trust in us.

    I don't think it's immoral to lie to an animal unless the end result is immoral... Like, you can shake the leash to tell the dog you're going for a walk when you're actually going to the vet, but that's fine; there's not really much way to explain to them it's in their best interest. We can only communicate with them to a point. But if you're tricking them into like, going to the dogfights, that's getting immoral. If the intent of the deceit is to use an animal's trust in you as their caretaker to hurt them unnecessarily, I think that starts getting immoral.
    "There was so much handwriting on the wall that even the wall fell down"

    "In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only sure weapon against bad ideas is better ideas. The source of better ideas is wisdom. The surest path to wisdom is a liberal education." Alfred Whitney, Essays on Education

    Don't you know
    That it ain't a crime
    If all the squares
    And the junkmen
    Think you're out of line


    TH:

  12. #41
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    637
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by IMJerusha View Post
    Unusual question. Answer: Yes. All of my animals receive the greatest respect and consideration...including my husband!
    That's funny, I thought you were made to be his assistant.

  13. #42
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    7,945
    Thanks
    1,496
    Thanked 3,044 Times in 1,845 Posts

    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1538481
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Whoa....I really don't think I could bring myself to tell that big a whopper.
    I don't even think I could talk to that dog!
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  14. #43
    Silver Member glorydaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    14,065
    Thanks
    4,281
    Thanked 19,186 Times in 9,611 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147691
    Quote Originally Posted by zoo22 View Post
    You deceive them. Make them understand something that isn't true. Animals can understand things we tell them, and animals put their trust in us.

    I don't think it's immoral to lie to an animal unless the end result is immoral... Like, you can shake the leash to tell the dog you're going for a walk when you're actually going to the vet, but that's fine; there's not really much way to explain to them it's in their best interest. We can only communicate with them to a point. But if you're tricking them into like, going to the dogfights, that's getting immoral. If the intent of the deceit is to use an animal's trust in you as their caretaker to hurt them unnecessarily, I think that starts getting immoral.
    Yeah, I hate to see people who call their dogs all sweet like and then they beat them half to death. That's just plain evil. Course, if the dog had just bitten your baby and the only way you could lay hands on him.......well, sometimes extreme actions require extreme measures. I love my dogs, but sometimes I've had to give them quite a lickin' for their own good. Poor things.

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to glorydaz For Your Post:

    LoneStar (April 10th, 2016),Tambora (April 10th, 2016)

  16. #44
    Silver Member glorydaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    14,065
    Thanks
    4,281
    Thanked 19,186 Times in 9,611 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147691
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I don't even think I could talk to that dog!
    Probably the hardest thing would be keeping your stomach settled while you did it. Poor little thing.

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to glorydaz For Your Post:

    LoneStar (April 10th, 2016),Tambora (April 10th, 2016)

  18. #45
    Over 750 post club Brother Vinny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Tulsa, dig it?
    Posts
    767
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 30 Times in 24 Posts

    Blog Entries
    23
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    94152
    Lies you don't want to tell animals:

    "I'm not seeing any other llamas."
    "To deny Calvinism is to deny the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Charles Spurgeon

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us