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Thread: toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    No, Judas was never saved, you can study all the verb tenses you want to but it will not change Judas into a believer. He was chosen to eat with them, but He never believed unto salvation.

    John 6:64
    But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    'from the beginning' is an idiom that does not literally mean from the absolute beginning. Other verses show that he was called an apostle, chosen for Christ's inner circle, but near the beginning BECAME a betrayer and then later a son of perdition full of Satan (was not in the absolute beginning to creation, birth, calling for ministry).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Scripture supports OSAS! However, Scripture cannot support
    your weighty false teachings!
    Most evangelicals (apart from Calvinists) beg to differ based on Scripture. We differ on interpretation, but to say there is no support is false and displays ignorance of the debate.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You reckon without the POWER of God to finish the work He began in us. You also reckon without the fact that born again believers are a new creation who have a heart purified by FAITH. And, you seem to deny the Promises which prove what you say is impossible.
    Using your logic, it is a denial of God's power if we deny universalism. If He can unconditionally keep someone, then He should be able to unconditionally save EVERYONE. If you are deterministic, TULIP Calvinist, I cannot help you. Your whole paradigm is wrong, though consistent (I would say POTS/OSAS is possible under Calvinism, but not under free will, relational theisms, the biblical paradigm).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    'from the beginning' is an idiom that does not literally mean from the absolute beginning. Other verses show that he was called an apostle, chosen for Christ's inner circle, but near the beginning BECAME a betrayer and then later a son of perdition full of Satan (was not in the absolute beginning to creation, birth, calling for ministry).
    Man! You like to hide the truth under a lot of imaginative mumbo jumbo don't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehmill View Post
    *
    Jesus said "have I not chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil?" that is a direct contradiction to you. He knew from the beginning who it was who disbelieved and who it was who would betray Him.

    If Acts is what the church ought to be my dear we are ALL fallen away but we are not damned.

    Now think [Mr Brain] is any earthly shadow of heavenly things such as marriage a perfect type of the real? The bible explicitly says that God's will concerning divorce is NO NO from the beginning [which is God's will] they became one flesh...as Paul says we have become flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone...we are made one spirit with the Lord.
    Unbelief is a unique sin. The church in Acts and NT was far from perfect. This is a sanctification issue, not an apostasy/perseverance issue (dealt with in Hebrews, etc. where Jewish Christians were reverting back to Judaism and forfeiting their hope in Christ).

    Jesus made the statement in present tense. It was true when He later made this statement that Judas was a betrayer. You are wrong, based on the context and grammar, to say he was chosen in this state or always in this state. You are proof texting to retain a wrong view, not exegeting in context.

    Change your view, not the Bible.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Most evangelicals (apart from Calvinists) beg to differ based on Scripture. We differ on interpretation, but to say there is no support is false and displays ignorance of the debate.
    I take it, you've gone around personnally and, polled most evangelicals, huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Man! You like to hide the truth under a lot of imaginative mumbo jumbo don't you?
    Look at all uses of 'from the beginning' in Scripture and your wooden literalism cannot be justified.

    It is the same as failing to see the idiom (from mother's womb/Hebraism) in Ps. 51 and making a big doctrine of Augustinian original sin by failing to interpret properly.

    The problem is your lack of interpretation, not my mumbo jumbo.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Using your logic, it is a denial of God's power if we deny universalism. If He can unconditionally keep someone, then He should be able to unconditionally save EVERYONE. If you are deterministic, TULIP Calvinist, I cannot help you. Your whole paradigm is wrong, though consistent (I would say POTS/OSAS is possible under Calvinism, but not under free will, relational theisms, the biblical paradigm).
    You have a way with words, however, your words have, no way of resembling the, truth of Scripture!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    I take it, you've gone around personnally and, polled most evangelicals, huh?
    It is a fact that Calvinism-like and Arminian-like views are polarized. I suspect most of the Church is not Calvinistic, though much of it is. Arminians/free will theists virtually all reject OSAS, while Calvinists/TULIP affirms POTS/OSAS-like.

    Do you dispute that the majority of Christians are not Calvinists? The few free will theists who accept OSAS are a distinct minority and inconsistent with their views.

    Regardless, majority/minority does not prove anything, so my case is based on cumulative biblical evidence.

    MAD on TOL also sees that some were not OSAS (circ vs uncirc), so they get around it by saying the non-OSAS verses in Hebrews, etc. don't apply to Pauline believers. This is a loop hole, but bad theology. The other forced loop hole is to say that those who professed Christ, but no longer do so, were never saved. This is begging the question, illogical, and not being honest with the biblical text.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Look at all uses of 'from the beginning' in Scripture and your wooden literalism cannot be justified.

    It is the same as failing to see the idiom (from mother's womb/Hebraism) in Ps. 51 and making a big doctrine of Augustinian original sin by failing to interpret properly.

    The problem is your lack of interpretation, not my mumbo jumbo.
    Your assessment of me is, faulty because, you have a lack of discernment, regarding the truth of Scripture! Therein, lies the
    problem!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    You have a way with words, however, your words have, no way of resembling the, truth of Scripture!
    Refute the argument instead of attacking with ad hominem useless words.

    Tell me why OSAS is true, but universalism is not. It is a valid point, so deal with it.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

  16. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Have you even thought about the idea that, Christ
    was telling that person, not to continue, in THAT
    particular sin? Just a warning from Christ to stop
    committing that, personally chosen sin?
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Yep. And after much chastening, that particular act will no longer be a problem, but, rest assured, another area will be brought into the light.
    How many commandments are you trying to keep? How many commandments do Christians have to keep? List them. It must be a very long list, else what you've said cannot be true.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    It is a fact that Calvinism-like and Arminian-like views are polarized. I suspect most of the Church is not Calvinistic, though much of it is. Arminians/free will theists virtually all reject OSAS, while Calvinists/TULIP affirms POTS/OSAS-like.

    Do you dispute that the majority of Christians are not Calvinists? The few free will theists who accept OSAS are a distinct minority and inconsistent with their views.

    Regardless, majority/minority does not prove anything, so my case is based on cumulative biblical evidence.

    MAD on TOL also sees that some were not OSAS (circ vs uncirc), so they get around it by saying the non-OSAS verses in Hebrews, etc. don't apply to Pauline believers. This is a loop hole, but bad theology. The other forced loop hole is to say that those who professed Christ, but no longer do so, were never saved. This is begging the question, illogical, and not being honest with the biblical text.
    The Bible speaks of the fact that, few will make it (narrow is the way, remember?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Unbelief is a unique sin. The church in Acts and NT was far from perfect. This is a sanctification issue, not an apostasy/perseverance issue (dealt with in Hebrews, etc. where Jewish Christians were reverting back to Judaism and forfeiting their hope in Christ).

    Jesus made the statement in present tense. It was true when He later made this statement that Judas was a betrayer. You are wrong, based on the context and grammar, to say he was chosen in this state or always in this state. You are proof texting to retain a wrong view, not exegeting in context.

    Change your view, not the Bible.
    Nah, nah you are bending the truth to fit your doctrine, if He knew from the beginning that was when He chose him.

    This is what Hebrews says
    10v 9-10 Then He said Lo I am come to do Thy will O God, He taketh away the first that He may establish the second by the which will we are SANCTIFIED through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.

    vs14
    For by one offering He hath PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified.

    Just read and believe...it says we are sanctified by the offering...not anything we do or fail to do...once for all.
    To progress we have to go back...to the bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Refute the argument instead of attacking with ad hominem useless words.

    Tell me why OSAS is true, but universalism is not. It is a valid point, so deal with it.
    The words aren't useless to those who have, true discernment of the truth!

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