How did I not answer the question? What do you need clarified?lightninboy said:
The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace
- Thread starter Bob Hill
- Start date
No one was saved under the OT law, and no one who is still under the law and not under grace is saved. No one is saved without Jesus. Is that clear enough for you William?godrulz said:
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
The great commission was given in Matthew and Mark.
Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Mark 16:15-18 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Sometime during his second missionary journey after he had left Corinth, the Apostle Paul told the body of Christ about the baptisms which they knew of, in this manner: “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius . . . . For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel”
1 Co 1:14-17 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
From this we see that Paul was not under the great commission which was given to the circumcision apostles.
In 1 Co 12:13, he wrote, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; whether Jews or Greeks”.
Therefore, water baptism had changed from being the only baptism, and necessary for salvation, to a ritual which had faded away.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Mark 16:15-18 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Sometime during his second missionary journey after he had left Corinth, the Apostle Paul told the body of Christ about the baptisms which they knew of, in this manner: “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius . . . . For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel”
1 Co 1:14-17 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
From this we see that Paul was not under the great commission which was given to the circumcision apostles.
In 1 Co 12:13, he wrote, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; whether Jews or Greeks”.
Therefore, water baptism had changed from being the only baptism, and necessary for salvation, to a ritual which had faded away.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Christ paid with His life. He made our salvation certain with predestination.
Eph 1:5 “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. And He did all this by His grace. Eph 1:6 “to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
So, God’s election is not to salvation. It is to perfection because we are in Christ. It is for our eternal security. We who trust in Christ as our Savior have this security. This is a spiritual blessing for the body of Christ alone.
Now, in verse 5, what is God’s will? I believe we can break God’s will down into 3 scriptural categories. His intentional will (thelayma), His circumstantial will (thelayma), and His ultimate, or determinate will or counsel (boulay).
When we look at His intentional will, the first thing we should see is this. We were created for His will (pleasure). The question we must keep in mind here, is: do we ever thwart God’s intentional will?
Rev 4:11 “You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created.”
Next, as part of this, He wants us all to love Him.
Mk 12:30,31 “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.”
1 Co 16:22 “If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come! Then, He wants us all to love one another.”
John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.”
1 Th 4:9,10 “But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more.
Remember the question we must keep in mind here: do we ever thwart God’s intentional will? In answer, we see that He wills all to be saved. 1 Tim 2:4 “who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” But, because man totally rebelled against God, in order to receive salvation, man must believe God and do what He says for salvation.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”
Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Heb 10:36 “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise.”
For us in this Dispensation of Grace, His will is found in Acts 16:31, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Eph 1:5 “having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. And He did all this by His grace. Eph 1:6 “to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
So, God’s election is not to salvation. It is to perfection because we are in Christ. It is for our eternal security. We who trust in Christ as our Savior have this security. This is a spiritual blessing for the body of Christ alone.
Now, in verse 5, what is God’s will? I believe we can break God’s will down into 3 scriptural categories. His intentional will (thelayma), His circumstantial will (thelayma), and His ultimate, or determinate will or counsel (boulay).
When we look at His intentional will, the first thing we should see is this. We were created for His will (pleasure). The question we must keep in mind here, is: do we ever thwart God’s intentional will?
Rev 4:11 “You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created.”
Next, as part of this, He wants us all to love Him.
Mk 12:30,31 “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.”
1 Co 16:22 “If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come! Then, He wants us all to love one another.”
John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.”
1 Th 4:9,10 “But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more.
Remember the question we must keep in mind here: do we ever thwart God’s intentional will? In answer, we see that He wills all to be saved. 1 Tim 2:4 “who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” But, because man totally rebelled against God, in order to receive salvation, man must believe God and do what He says for salvation.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”
Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Heb 10:36 “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise.”
For us in this Dispensation of Grace, His will is found in Acts 16:31, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Next, we see His will is that we be holy.
1 Th 4:3-8 “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.”
Do we thwart His will here?
In Christ,
Bob Hill
1 Th 4:3-8 “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.”
Do we thwart His will here?
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Next, we find God’s will is that we function in the local body.
1 Co 12:18,20-27 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
But many are not obeying God in this way.
In Christ my Savior,
Bob Hill
1 Co 12:18,20-27 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
But many are not obeying God in this way.
In Christ my Savior,
Bob Hill
lightninboy
Member
Lighthouse said:
Paul was speaking for the Lord.
Please give a brief summary of Old Testament salvation. When you say that no one was saved under the law, it might imply that all before Christ went to hell.
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Further, we find His will is that we all know the mystery.
Eph 3:8,9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately, most Christians do not know what the dispensation of the mystery is.
Here is what it is: Col 1:27 “To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.”
Again, do all Christians know “what is the dispensation of the mystery”?
NO!!
Bob Hill
Eph 3:8,9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.
Unfortunately, most Christians do not know what the dispensation of the mystery is.
Here is what it is: Col 1:27 “To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.”
Again, do all Christians know “what is the dispensation of the mystery”?
NO!!
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Next, we see that His will is that we teach the mystery to others.
2 Ti 2:1,2 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
Also, do we have many teaching the mystery?
I’m afraid not!!!!
Then, we see His will is that we work out our salvation.
Phi 2:12,13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
As we can see now, God’s will can be thwarted by us just as Israel thwarted His will for them as recorded in Psa 78:40,41 How often they [Israel] provoked Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert! 41 Yes, again and again they tempted God and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Let’s make sure we don’t ever fit in this category.
In Christ my Savior,
Bob Hill
2 Ti 2:1,2 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
Also, do we have many teaching the mystery?
I’m afraid not!!!!
Then, we see His will is that we work out our salvation.
Phi 2:12,13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
As we can see now, God’s will can be thwarted by us just as Israel thwarted His will for them as recorded in Psa 78:40,41 How often they [Israel] provoked Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert! 41 Yes, again and again they tempted God and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Let’s make sure we don’t ever fit in this category.
In Christ my Savior,
Bob Hill
What does this have to do with anything, anyway. So what if there was no limitation?lightninboy said:
They went to Abraham's Bosom to wait upon the Lord.
lightninboy
Member
Lighthouse said:
If there was no limitation on salvation by grace through faith alone, it must go on into the Great Tribulation.
The unsaved went to Abraham's Bosom too?
I know Christ hadn't led captivity up to heaven yet.
Just say whether your MAD agrees with Jerry Shugart or Bob Hill.
Damian said:
He that believes and goes to church is saved. He that believes and reads their Bible and tells others about Jesus is saved. He that believes and eats food everyday is saved.
What saves? Other verses are explicit that faith alone saves (Jn. 3:16, 36; Jn. 1;12; I Jn. 5:11-13; Rom. 1:16; 10:9,10; Eph. 2:8-10). Church, Bible reading, eating, praying, etc. does not save. They are evidences that one is saved by grace through faith apart from works, including baptism works.
Baptism is an outward evidence of inward faith. It is a step of obedience once one is saved. In Acts, some were saved before later baptism or not baptized at all. The thief on the cross was not baptized. Verses that talk about faith alone stand as is. This is why Mark 16 does not say that those who do not believe and are NOT baptized will not be saved. The baptism part is not repeated since it is not salvific. It is faith, not ritual, that saves.
In addition, Mark 16 section is simply not in the best and oldest MSS. Baptismal regeneration is heresy, period.
Lighthouse said:
OT saints went to heaven. They were saved due to the promise of the coming Messiah. You are using saved exclusively as born again in the NT. It does not mean that OT saints went to hell or were not saved in their own right. Grace/faith has always been the grounds/condition for salvation. Mid-Acts and its faith + works assumptions is flawed. Law and works never saved anyone. Outward evidences of faith varied in dispensations (circumcision, ceremonial laws, animal sacrifices, etc. vs believer's baptism), but faith was always the criteria (Rom. 4).
patman
Active member
Hey Godrulz,godrulz said:
I know we spoke about this in another thread, and I disappeared from it for a while, but this thread seems like a good place to pick back up...
I argued that the prophecies in Daniel 9:25-27 leave no other explanation other than mid-acts and the dispensation of grace. The 'tribulation' was said to take place 7 years after the "anointed one" was cut off. And it simply didn't happen.
Then we have Paul saying that we live in "the mystery" that was kept secret from past prophets. It seems perfectly clear to me that a "gap" has been placed in the kingdom timeline that allows for gentiles to be saved through grace during it.
You told me there were other explanations, and trust me I have explored this and cannot come up with any. I do not believe there is any other explanation for it.
How do you explain it?
All were unsaved.:doh:lightninboy said:
But, I know what you meant. Those who did not surrender to God went to hell.
I agree with Bob Hill, on Mid-Acts, for the most part. There may be a minor disagrement, but we both believe the other is not going to hell over it. I don't know too much about Jerry's beliefs, though. But I think I mostly agree with him.
Read your Bible. They went to Abraham's Bosom.godrulz said:
patman said:
I agree that there is a gap in the prophecy between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. This is the mystery of the hidden Church Age. The NT presupposes the imminent return of Christ, yet it did not happen when they rejected the King leading to a postponement of the Kingdom. I am Acts 2 dispensational and Open Theist, so I do not reject eschatological implications of the dynamic of the first century.
Walvoord and Pentecost would argue for the gap understanding of the 70 weeks (see Walvoord's Daniel commentary and Pentecost's 'Things to Come').