BRXII Battle talk

Actually the Scriptures teach that it is the angels that execute God's judgment on the wicked and cast the wicked into the Lake of Fire.

But the angels are enforcing God's judgment on the wicked. And this judgment is deserved by any person who has sinned and not received God's provision for that sin.

No sin can enter the presence of God. The only reason why sinners can go to Heaven is because they are covered by the blood of the Lamb of God.

Not covered by the blood of the Lamb: Not going to Heaven.
Not justified: Not going to Heaven.
Justification: By faith.

PastorKevin said:

Actually the Scriptures teach that it is the angels that execute God's judgment on the wicked and cast the wicked into the Lake of Fire.

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I don't believe that Jesus taught that we should fear angels, but Him Who has The Power to cast body and soul into hell. :think:

The first thing an angel is most likely to say to someone when he appears, "Fear not..." I'm sure their presence is terrifying, since to us holiness is so severe. It is both revealing and terrible, in its goodness.

Aimiel said:

Wrong. That is exactly what they need, but don't ever know, because of their denial of His Existence. Hell has no redeeming qualities, such as you ascribe to it via your imaginary god. God is our Savior, not hell. We don't need any other savior, because God is The One and Only Savior, and His Name isn't Satan. You need to buy a clue.

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Sure its what they need, but you're saying that unrepentent sinners are comfortable
in God's presence?

Dave,
You keep preaching ... but you have failed to address the lake not being part of God.

Balder said:

Do you think the only option God has open to him for removing sin from his presence is by consigning large numbers of beings to a condition of eternal conscious torment?

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And your idea is...? Eternal meditiation?

Would you be disappointed if Satan and his angels were also saved -- not only "rescued," but transformed and redeemed?

Have you ever considered praying for Satan's well being? You are commanded to pray for your enemies, and I expect he is the chief among them....

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Do you ask irrelevant "questions" like this because you have nothing better to say?

PastorKevin said:

Get a new argument. This is a very weak one. The point and the purpose are that God is holy and righteous and cannot have sin in His holy and righteous presence. Understand? And they are not my "Own perceived notions of justice on God's part". I teach and preach the Word of God, the Bible. God has spoken plainly in the Bible. You dishoner Him and His Word with statements like these. How about you stick to attacking ideas and not people. I can attack you back and what does that gain for us? What you call "My own" perceived notions is accepted by most of orthodox Christianity, so it is hardly "My own". In fact it is God's own because HE is the one who inspired the Bible that you deny.

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Pastor - this was not an attack on you as a person but the ideas which you hold, if I'm not mistaken you hold to the view that eternal suffering is justified and endless agony is to requite justice for God, if i am mistaken then I withdraw my remarks.
As to sin not being able to be in the presence of God then I would be in agreement, universal salvation doesnt teach that it is, all sin and evil will be overcome by God's sacrifice - so yes - I already understand....
with ET though sin is never vanquished, according to ET it will still exist for eternity in some space in the universe where people are writhing in torment for aeons, its never completely banished but still allowed to exist....

Never claimed to know the heart of anyone. Only what God has said in His Word. And God has never said anywhere that people will be brought to the knowledge of the truth after they die. I would think that a statement that important would be pasted all over Scriptures. You find it nowhere. The only way you get it is by twisting the Scriptures. You don't see that because the false teachers who have deceived you have misled you. I am sorry that I have to be the one who is pointing this out to you, but if I didn't care about people (including you) then I wouldn't continue to fight against false teaching.

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I know it would make it easier for you to believe that I gullibly followed universalism because I liked it pastor but it just isnt the case, If i didnt believe it was what God intended through scriptures to reconcile his own world then I wouldnt believe in it, and believe me - you would not be the first to have tried to point his out........!

In light of eternity the few years they spend here and the "age" they spend in the future would pale in comparison. Under Universalism (not Bible) doctrine they will all be saved anyway.

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So in effect you seem to be saying that there's no point in preaching the message if ET is taken out of the equation, how about bringing hope to people that there is a God who loves them and wants them to know he exists? That should be reason enough

Is Satan and the fallen angels included in that entire creation? Will they be saved?

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I wouldnt have a problem if they were, if God sees fit to reconcile them then I would have no argument, would you?

Red the argument is hardly flawed. Why do you have such a difficult time with admitting that we will be fellowshipping with Hitler for all eternity? The reason I use those extremes is because in the doctrine of Universalism Hitler will be with us in Heaven. It shows how utterly wicked Universal Salvation is. Hitler was an unrepentant wicked murderer. He is just one example. Child molesters, rapists, mass murderers all get to go to Heaven in the doctrine of Universalism. Sorry if YOU think this is a flawed argument. The flaw is in the doctrine of Universalism.

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You have this mixed up pastor, I dont have a problem with admitting that Hitler or Stalin would be in Heaven, by that point all sin and its effects will have been done away with, Hitler or Stalin or anyone else who we would define as evil will have been reconciled to God, they'll still be accountable for what they've done (as we all will be) and justice will be served accordingly, according to you the only answer would be to have these people burned for eternity for their wickedness and you use these extreme examples to attempt to justify ET - and it doesnt work, as human beings none of us are perfect and according to ET people will go to hell for everlasting agony simply for unbelief, so the victims of all the evil and sufering caused by men would suffer in the same place, if you're trying to argue that Universalism is 'evil' because it allows Hitler to be reconciled - what does it say about your doctrine where his victims will suffer alongside him in hell? Thats where the flaw comes in :think:

So Hitler was not evil? My own human standards? God has set standards of right and wrong in His Word. Or do you believe that Red. Hey this is a good question for you: Is there such a thing as absolute right and wrong Red? Yes or No.

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Yes, there are absolutes and what Hitler did was evil, we're not at cross purposes on this one,
here's a question back - is torturing wrong? Yes or no.

I could swear I was blasted for saying Universalists haven't been saying this kind of stuff. So if God's Word is true that unbelievers, Satan, the fallen angels, the beast and the false prophet spend eternity in the Lake of Fire in torment, then God is a monster?

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Well if the doctrine of ET is true it certainly portrays God to be that way, the devil himself couldnt do anything worse - but if this is to be another attempt at saying that universalism is 'feeling' based because ET doesnt sound nice then I would hope by now you know it not to be the case, it also cuts both ways as well, if you're going to use analogies such as Hitler being reconciled to God to make universalism sound 'wicked' then you bring your own feelings into the argument.... :think:

I have responded to your all in all verse a zillion times now. It doesn't mean what Universalism says it means. Everything IS under subjection to God because at this point there is NO MORE open rebellion against God like there is NOW. Understand?

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Except that there's a corner in somewhere of the universe that God hasnt subjected TO himself but rather away from and which according to ET lasts for ever.....

The Lake of Fire is a real place of pain and suffering that unbelievers, Satan, the fallen angels, the beast, and the false prophet will spend all eternity in. Period.

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Perhaps this may be better suited for a separate thread but I really am curious as to how much of revelation you read as symbolic and the parts that you read as literal, or whether you read it all literally...?

Wow didn't you already say this before about a zillion times? Why don't you open up another thread in the Christian Only forum about God being All in All and the positions of Universalism on it? It might be an interesting discussion.

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Maybe it could at that

Dave Miller said:

Sure its what they need, but you're saying that unrepentent sinners are comfortable in God's presence?

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No, I'm saying they're not in God's Presence. He can't abide sin. Hell contains sinners. His Presence isn't revealed to them. His Presence is The Most Precious Thing there is. His Words are Life and Spirit, not death and punishment.

Nineveh said:

And your idea is...? Eternal meditiation?



Do you ask irrelevant "questions" like this because you have nothing better to say?

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It appears you are clueless as to my own beliefs and incapable of seeing bigger pictures in which such questions would make sense.

Nineveh said:

Dave,
You keep preaching ... but you have failed to address the lake not being part of God.

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Just as you have failed to address Jesus' winnowing.

Dave Miller said:

Just as you have failed to address Jesus' winnowing.

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I've addressed both. Firstly, the lake is outside and secondly, you try to find more "confusion" because you do not understand the metaphors all say the same thing. Once again, dave, it's not merely sin cast into the lake.

Balder said:

It appears you are clueless as to my own beliefs and incapable of seeing bigger pictures in which such questions would make sense.

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Well, since you failed to answered my question, I guess you can't accuse me of not trying to understand

An interesting side note: BR XII Battle Talk is the 2nd most replied to of all BR Battle Talk threads. And it's still going strong......

Aimiel said:

No, I'm saying they're not in God's Presence. He can't abide sin. Hell contains sinners. His Presence isn't revealed to them. His Presence is The Most Precious Thing there is. His Words are Life and Spirit, not death and punishment.

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This would go against scripture, both 1 Peter 3 and Psalm 139 come to mind.

"If I make my bed in Hell you are there."

18because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he
might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been
made alive in the spirit, 19in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did
preach...

God's Presence is everywhere.

BTW, Kevin keeps saying there is no evidence in Scripture that folks in judgement
can meet Jesus and repent, its right there in 2 Peter.

To answer your first question, if God cannot redeem these people, or if you believe they can't be redeemed (for whatever reason), then annihilation would be morally superior to consigning sentient beings to a condition of inescapable conscious torment beyond all human imagining.

Personally, I don't believe there are ANY sentient beings who can't be transformed and saved, but if you refuse to believe that, the annihilation is a better doctrine than ET.

Nineveh said:

I've addressed both. Firstly, the lake is outside and secondly, you try to find more "confusion" because you do not understand the metaphors all say the same thing. Once again, dave, it's not merely sin cast into the lake.

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Please, enlighten me. How is it that Jesus' winnowing, which seperates waste from
grain, and the waste is cast into the furnace, how is this the "same thing?" And
what is it the same as?

Balder said:

To answer your first question, if God cannot redeem these people, or if you believe they can't be redeemed (for whatever reason), then annihilation would be morally superior to consigning sentient beings to a condition of inescapable conscious torment beyond all human imagining.

Personally, I don't believe there are ANY sentient beings who can't be transformed and saved, but if you refuse to believe that, the annihilation is a better doctrine than ET.

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Balder again.

Dave Miller said:

This would go against scripture, both 1 Peter 3 and Psalm 139 come to mind. "If I make my bed in Hell you are there."

18because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 19in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach...

God's Presence is everywhere.

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I never said It wasn't; only that His Presence isn't revealed to sinners. They can't 'have' His Presence, because they don't believe in Him.

BTW, Kevin keeps saying there is no evidence in Scripture that folks in judgement can meet Jesus and repent, its right there in 2 Peter.

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I agree with Kevin, and you'll have to be more specific (verse or verses, please).

Dave Miller said:

This would go against scripture, both 1 Peter 3 and Psalm 139 come to mind.

"If I make my bed in Hell you are there."

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Do you know there is a difference between hell and the lake?

18because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he
might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been
made alive in the spirit, 19in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did
preach...

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Once again, do you know there is a difference between hell and the lake?

God's Presence is everywhere.

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Now that goes against Scripture. Could you please point out a verse that tells us the Holy Spirit resides in those who have rejected Him?

Please, enlighten me. How is it that Jesus' winnowing, which seperates waste from grain, and the waste is cast into the furnace, how is this the "same thing?" And
what is it the same as?

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The waste isn't the sin, dave, it's the sinners.