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Thread: toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    This is totally logical.

    It is just as logical to believe that many will be saved, because the Savior bore the transgressions of many.

    Isaiah 53:11-12

    One must either decide that salvation is universal or that salvation is particular, for there is no other logical position.

    However, Universalism fails greatly under the scrutiny of the entire Word of God.

    Nang
    Then I'd go with the option that does away with a cruel and capricious deity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Then I'd go with the option that does away with a cruel and capricious deity.
    A "cruel and capricious deity" would not provide grace, forgiveness, and an escape from death and hell . . . for anybody.

    You are making the demand that God is obligated to save all, in order to be a righteous God. But God is righteous, primarily because He is holy and just.

    I am so thankful God saved any of us from our sins, because none of us deserve His salvation, let alone the ransom price of the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

    Nang
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Did Jesus not believe in it? Is His sacrifice moot if it covers everyone even if people were to come to realize it at different times? Are you any better than an atheist because you've come to believe and they haven't? Doesn't that mean you have to take some credit yourself if that's what's important and spares you from whatever fashion of hell awaits those who don't?

    Human altruism is to be applauded for sure, but how many of those who have laid down their own lives did so without belief? Do they deserve to be consigned to oblivion or worse?

    I don't know what anyone deserves. I'm hoping I won't get what I deserve.
    My thought? There are many surprises awaiting us in the hearafter.
    Who knows which side of the gate awaits? And who knows what shocked looks of surprise shall manifest on the faces of those in whose midst one finds oneself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psalmist View Post
    For you it's best not to believe in anything, than to have believed in anything at all.
    Nope, I actually take great pleasure in being incorrect in my assumptions. As for eternal torment... it'd be captivating to see how it plays out.

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    Over 5000 post club Letsargue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letsargue View Post
    1 Corinthians 13:9-13 KJV --- 9- “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10- But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    11- When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    12- For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
    13- And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity”. -------///--- Paul just got through saying that that was then, not “Later”. ---- There must be something to that, - besides what comes after a total destroying of the whole creation. – Something Must still be around, from what Paul is saying it will be Like AFTER, or “THEN”, “Then”?? – When, what, how shall I “Know” even as I also “AM KNOWN”; -- and by whom if not God face to face. --- Again: ---- Matthew 18:10 KJV ---&--- Hebrews 13:2 KJV ------///--- Must these hard to grasp stuff with the mind, - must they be untrue??? --- I realize it’s very Heavy stuff. --- Look, a fun thing. ---- A person bearing a heavy load, is said to be ( Heavy “Laden” ). What if that person could only be a woman?? - and in Truth, that’s the very way God works in Spirit. – (( Truth speaks Truth in Truth )). Who carries the Heavy Burden?? -- The man is the “Lader”, and it is he who burdens the “LADIE”. – I thought I’d throw that in for YOU. – Who hath seen a virtuous woman?? – Proverbs 31:10-31 KJV --- 10- Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
    11- The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
    12- She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
    13- She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
    14- She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
    15- She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
    16- She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
    17- She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms”: ------>>>>-----///--- 31. --- That's the Bride of Christ the Church, the Wife of Christ, Christ is her Husband seen in the gates of the City, New Jerusalem ---?.

    Paul – 040313


    Matthew 11:28 KJV --- 28- “Come unto me, all ye that ( “Labour” and are heavy “Laden” ), and I will give you rest. ----///--- That is Jesus saying to those who WILL be Christians, that the “Labor” and heavy “Laden” are from Him in the Spiritual when the time of the Spirit arrives. Jesus is saying in Spirit that He is the “Lader” who is giving His “Ladie” / “Lady” a heavy burden which makes her heavy “Laden”. --- The Lord’s “Ladie” is heavy “Laden” by the “Lader” / Jesus, but joyfully; - not as Israel in Egypt as slaves; though we / the Bride of Christ are Servants of Christ, - heavy “Laden” in Faith with Joy and Peace and Rest from the Burden of Satan. -------- Words have changed since then. – Really, - the only one here who may be up on such as this is AMR, - So how about it AMR, -- Really!!

    Paul – 040313

    What if I’m right in some of this?? – The shock of all time is awaiting for so many people.

    Paul – 040313
    ---Gal. 4:16.
    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOL's resident brainless moron View Post
    Does that mean you think every atheist/agnostic is consciously choosing to reject God?
    Absolutely and without question.

    Romans 1

    19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
    Last edited by Nick M; April 3rd, 2013 at 07:44 PM.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for April 2nd, 2013 05:00 AM


    toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe and why?

    I would love to believe in eventual annihilationism and think a case can be made for it, but in light of all the scriptures that touch anywhere on the issue, no matter how much i would love to believe it, i cannot and have to believe the bible speaks of eternal torment and it comes right down to if torment is not eternal, than neither will any have eternal life, because the 2 cannot be separated since the same use of eternal is given for eternal life as it is eternal punishment.

    The torment i believe though is mostly self torment, being aware of having known the truth and rejecting it anyway and knowing you will be forever separated from the love of God and others when you could have had all that and did this to yourself.

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Then I'd go with the option that does away with a cruel and capricious deity.
    Isn't it fun when people insist you have to decide between their beliefs rather than having your own?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dena View Post
    Isn't it fun when people insist you have to decide between their beliefs rather than having your own?
    There is another option/belief within christianity that wasnt listed? Please share.

    We are at Theology Online right and it is a christian board yes?

    Its is possible not to post in threads which do not apply to your beliefs as well no?

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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  13. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    How many times in Calvinism is the word 'all' reduced to 'many' or 'some'?

    Would it not be valid to suggest that those 'especially saved' are those who reap the benefits of belief as oppose to those without? Else you're really offering nothing different than anyone else who morphs 'especially' into 'only' no matter how eruditely put.
    AB,

    So when you ask for how the verse is viewed, you really did not intend to be open to correction. Exegete the passages and let's see where things end up rather than wave off any view that differs from your own.

    To your opening question above, the answer is that the word "all" is reduced to "many", "all kinds", etc., exactly as many times as is warranted from proper grammatico-historical hermeneutics. Surely you do not think that every time you encounter "all" in Holy Writ it singularly means each and every one in totality? That said, you do seem to be inclined towards universalism so your preferences are noted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    A "cruel and capricious deity" would not provide grace, forgiveness, and an escape from death and hell . . . for anybody.

    You are making the demand that God is obligated to save all, in order to be a righteous God. But God is righteous, primarily because He is holy and just.

    I am so thankful God saved any of us from our sins, because none of us deserve His salvation, let alone the ransom price of the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

    Nang
    God is unconditional love, so "He" saves all. We are all sons and daughters of God, and God loves all his children. What child of yours would you not save?

    God did not sacrifice his "only begotten Son;" He rose from the dead, and could have continued on Earth, as he did for a while; but then he ascended.
    Keep the Spirit alive;
    Eric the Green

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    I would love to believe in eventual annihilationism and think a case can be made for it, but in light of all the scriptures that touch anywhere on the issue, no matter how much i would love to believe it, i cannot and have to believe the bible speaks of eternal torment and it comes right down to if torment is not eternal, than neither will any have eternal life, because the 2 cannot be separated since the same use of eternal is given for eternal life as it is eternal punishment.

    The torment i believe though is mostly self torment, being aware of having known the truth and rejecting it anyway and knowing you will be forever separated from the love of God and others when you could have had all that and did this to yourself.
    God could care less if you "accept Jesus as your savior." He doesn't care which religion you belong to. What torment there is, is self-torment; yes. When we let go and forgive, we move on. That is a kind of "grace."
    Keep the Spirit alive;
    Eric the Green

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    A "cruel and capricious deity" would not provide grace, forgiveness, and an escape from death and hell . . . for anybody.

    You are making the demand that God is obligated to save all, in order to be a righteous God. But God is righteous, primarily because He is holy and just.

    I am so thankful God saved any of us from our sins, because none of us deserve His salvation, let alone the ransom price of the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

    Nang
    An all powerful God who only chooses to save a few based on no particular conditions is cruel and capricious. A God who is all loving and only saves a few is lacking in power. It is impossible to reconcile the attributes of omnipotence and omnibenevolence with Calvinistic soteriology. Calling Calvinism for Christianity is a joke at best, it renders the statement "God is love" utterly meaningless.
    "By the tender mercy of our God, the dawn from on high will break upon us to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." (Luke 1:78-79)

    The Light Eternal, breaking through,
    the world to gleam anew;
    His beams have pierced the core of night,
    He makes us children of the light.

    -Martin Luther

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    Quote Originally Posted by eameece View Post
    God could care less if you "accept Jesus as your savior." He doesn't care which religion you belong to. What torment there is, is self-torment; yes. When we let go and forgive, we move on. That is a kind of "grace."
    You are dead wrong and I hope you get it right before you meet Him in person. Your Jesus apparently died for nothing since you seem to believe you need no savior.

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    Over 5000 post club Letsargue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    You are dead wrong and I hope you get it right before you meet Him in person. Your Jesus apparently died for nothing since you seem to believe you need no savior.

    God’s caring IS His “Will”!! – God gave everyone of us a ( Choice ). - If he carried the way some think, He’d only given everyone the one Right Choice. -- Now even, CHOOSE!!

    Paul – 040413
    ---Gal. 4:16.
    ---"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth"???

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