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Thread: HOW ARE WE SAVED TODAY ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi , and this is what I meant :

    #1 , What is the timeline of Matt 8:11 ?

    #2 , What is the Kingdom of Heaven ??

    #3 , In the Kindom of Heaven , Abraham , Isaac and Jacob have there Idenitity !!

    #4 , They will be coming from the East and from the West to see Abraham in the Millennial Kingdom !!

    #5 , The Body of Christ is going to be in Heaven and there is NEITHER , MALE nor FEMALE !!

    #6 , And there a DIFFERENCE between Paradise , where the OT saints went when they died and Heaven , where we go when we die ??

    dan p
    If you click on the verse it will bring you to the new thread. If you post there I will pick up the conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
    If you click on the verse it will bring you to the new thread. If you post there I will pick up the conversation.

    Hi and there were many that were saved before Jesus died on the Cross !

    As I mentioned , Abraham , Isaac and Jacob and Moses !!

    The Kngdom of Heaven is the 1000 reign of Christ or the Millennial Kingdom !!

    These subjects should have there own OP !!

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and there were many that were saved before Jesus died on the Cross !

    As I mentioned , Abraham , Isaac and Jacob and Moses !!

    The Kngdom of Heaven is the 1000 reign of Christ or the Millennial Kingdom !!

    These subjects should have there own OP !!

    dan p
    I gave you a link to the new OP.

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    Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
    Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

    Hi , and to me it means we are not in the Old human Flesh , but we are " A New Man " as Eph 2;15 says ,because we are Indwelth with the Spirit of God !!


    DAN P
    Last edited by DAN P; April 5th, 2013 at 01:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi , and Deut 10:12-13 is straight forward to me and as I am not computer savvy , I was lost when I clicked on Deut 10:12 and 13 !!

    And one brliever , Acts 9 , who questions , when you are indwelth by the Holy Spirit , but 1 Cor 12:3 , answers that question for me as there are 4 verbs in that verse , that are in the PRESENT TENSE !!

    DAN P
    Does the Romans verse apply to the OT, in your opinion? From my view, it does and I don't know if I should say it can't.

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    The same as yesterday.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi , and how do you understand 1 Cor 2:14 ??

    dan p
    The natural man does not have the ability to understand the spiritual things of God. His nature blinds him, only possessing the wisdom of man. Without the wisdom of God man could never understand God. This is one reason Jesus stated the following:

    John 14:16-1716 "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you. (NASB)

    Why?

    John 14:25-26
    25 "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. (NASB)

    Without the Holy Spirit we could never understand God's words or nature. This is ultimately the fulfillment of the New Covenant as found in (Jer. 31:31-34.)

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    [QUOTE=Why?


    Without the Holy Spirit we could never understand God's words or nature. This is ultimately the fulfillment of the New Covenant as found in (Jer. 31:31-34.)[/QUOTE


    Hi , and IF we are under the NEW COVENANT , that will CLASH with Eph 2:12 , do you not see ??

    Gentiles NEVER had a Covenant with God !!

    Give a verse , where that is written ??

    dan p

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    [QUOTE=DAN P;3410196][QUOTE=Why?


    Without the Holy Spirit we could never understand God's words or nature. This is ultimately the fulfillment of the New Covenant as found in (Jer. 31:31-34.)[/QUOTE


    Hi , and IF we are under the NEW COVENANT , that will CLASH with Eph 2:12 , do you not see ??

    Gentiles NEVER had a Covenant with God !!

    Give a verse , where that is written ??

    dan p[/QUOTE]
    You need to read the whole context of that statement which I give you here.

    Eph 2:11-22
    11 Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands — 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20 having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
    (NASB)

    This tell me that, YES, I was excluded from the original covenant but through Christ I am included. This concept is confirmed for us in the following passage.


    Romans 11

    I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, they have torn down Thine altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? That which Israel is seeking for, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day." 9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap,And a stumbling block and a retribution to them. 10 "Let their eyes be darkened to see not, And bend their backs forever." 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 And if the first piece of dough be holy, the lump is also; and if the root be holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

    "The Deliverer will come from Zion,He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." 27"And this is My covenant with them,When I take away their sins."

    28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, in order that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.
    33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
    (NASB)

    In the end, I am grafted into the original root (The Covenant of Israel). Praise the Lord!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcetc;
    This tell me that, YES, I was excluded from the original covenant but through Christ I am included. This concept is confirmed for us in the following passage.


    [B
    Romans 11[/B]

    (NASB)

    In the end, I am grafted into the original root (The Covenant of Israel). Praise the Lord!

    Hi , and just where is the Body of Christ , included in and Olive Tree.

    If you believe in the DEPARTURE/RAPTURE we will be in heaven while those in the Millennium will be Grafted , Rom 11:25 as after we are DEPARTED , " until the Fulness of the Gentiles be come in " THEN Israel will be saved , in verse 26 !!

    The GRAFTEES are the Gentiles that GO into the Millennium and Rom 11:20-21 !!

    These are the Sheep and Goats that enter the Millennium and the standard of Judgment is found in Matt 25 , those that are grafted in can be LOST , AN WHAT SAY YOU ??

    Then you will never believe in a Pre-tribulation , right !!

    Where is that verse where the Body of Christ is in ANY WAY connected to any COVENANT/DIATHEKE ??

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi , and just where is the Body of Christ , included in and Olive Tree.

    If you believe in the DEPARTURE/RAPTURE we will be in heaven while those in the Millennium will be Grafted , Rom 11:25 as after we are DEPARTED , " until the Fulness of the Gentiles be come in " THEN Israel will be saved , in verse 26 !!

    The GRAFTEES are the Gentiles that GO into the Millennium and Rom 11:20-21 !!

    These are the Sheep and Goats that enter the Millennium and the standard of Judgment is found in Matt 25 , those that are grafted in can be LOST , AN WHAT SAY YOU ??

    Then you will never believe in a Pre-tribulation , right !!

    Where is that verse where the Body of Christ is in ANY WAY connected to any COVENANT/DIATHEKE ??

    dan p
    I hold to the view of per-trib, per-mill. Thus, I believe that the body of Christ or the Church will be taken out before the tribulation begins. The time of the gentiles ends with this event. The new covenant was fully fulfilled at the time of Pentecost through Christ's death and resurrection and the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. These two events represent the ability of God to keep such a covenant. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin and without the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, God cannot write on our hearts his laws.

    As to Matthew 25, it is my view that this passage in speaking about the tribulation period, not the time of the gentiles. Israel will be save in the end during this time.

    The olive tree represents the process of being adopted into God's family and the time of the gentiles is now. When Christ returns in the air to take his Church, the time of the gentiles will be over and the seven year tribulation period will begin, at the end of all this, Christ will return to establish His millennial kingdom. Sorry for the lack of references but I am short on time, but will be more than happy to explain my views with references if you so choose.

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    [QUOTE=rcetc;. The new covenant was fully fulfilled at the time of Pentecost through Christ's death and resurrection and the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. QUOTE]


    Hi , in the New Covenant Israel is given a new heart , Per Jer 31:31 and Ezek 36:24-38 !!

    Are the Jews in the Land and sprinked with clean Water , verse 24-25?

    The answer is NO , SO YOUR COMMENTS ARE MOOT !!

    Christ death on the cross PAID for over 1600 years of Animal sacrifice that the Priests of Israel sacrificed , Heb 9:15 !!

    You are mis-understanding Matt 25 , as the Sheep and Goats are Gentiles NATIONS/ETHNOS that either Protect Jews or Harm them .

    The Jews are Kings and Priests in the Millennium , Rev 1:6 !!

    dan p

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    [QUOTE=DAN P;3412410]
    Quote Originally Posted by rcetc;. The new covenant was fully fulfilled at the time of Pentecost through Christ's death and resurrection and the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. QUOTE


    Hi , in the New Covenant Israel is given a new heart , Per Jer 31:31 and Ezek 36:24-38 !!

    Are the Jews in the Land and sprinked with clean Water , verse 24-25?

    The answer is NO , SO YOUR COMMENTS ARE MOOT !!

    Christ death on the cross PAID for over 1600 years of Animal sacrifice that the Priests of Israel sacrificed , Heb 9:15 !!

    You are mis-understanding Matt 25 , as the Sheep and Goats are Gentiles NATIONS/ETHNOS that either Protect Jews or Harm them .

    The Jews are Kings and Priests in the Millennium , Rev 1:6 !!

    dan p
    It's been a while since I have looked at Matthew 25 with study in mind, but after review it is my interpretation that Matthew 25 follows the same pattern as Matthew 24 where Jesus answer his disciples' questions about when things were going to happen. In Matthew 24 Jesus gives them three separate events to take place in the future. One was fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem. The others are still outstanding. It is my view that Jesus continues the pattern with Matthew 25. The first part speaks of the rapture of the church and the beginning of the tribulation period and the last part is speaking about the end of the age after the millennium kingdom.

    As far as the New Convent (Jer. 31) is concerned, since we the body of Christ are grafted into the New Covenant, this is already in the progressive process of fulfillment, and when the body of Christ (the bride) is taken the New Covenant will come into its fullness during the millennium kingdom.

    As far as the sheep and the goats are concerned, they do not represent nations but individuals. The sheep are the saved and the goats are the lost. This can be verified by staying in context to the whole passage.

    As to Rev. 1.6, I believe this to be little better rendering:

    6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. (NASB) The NIV, ASV, RSV, and TLB all have the same rendering.

    No one will be a king in God's kingdom, except Jesus Christ who will be the only KING! Amen and Amen!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcetc View Post
    [QUAs far as the New Convent (Jer. 31) is concerned, since we the body of Christ are grafted into the New Covenant, this is already in the progressive process of fulfillment, and when the body of Christ (the bride) is taken the New Covenant will come into its fullness during the millennium kingdom.

    As far as the sheep and the goats are concerned, they do not represent nations but individuals. The sheep are the saved and the goats are the lost. This can be verified by staying in context to the whole passage.

    As to Rev. 1.6, I believe this to be little better rendering:

    6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. (NASB) The NIV, ASV, RSV, and TLB all have the same rendering.

    No one will be a king in God's kingdom, except Jesus Christ who will be the only KING! Amen and Amen!

    Hi , and in Rev 1:6 , there is the Greek word for KING/BASILEUS and see G935 !!

    PRIESTS/HIEREUS , G2409 !!

    Both words are in Rev 1:6 !!

    As far as Matt 25:32 , uses the Greek word NATIONS/ETHNOS !!

    As far as Rom 11 , goes , there are many Dispensationalists , that go every which way on Rom 11 !!

    How Rom 11:21-22 is believed !!

    Are we Grafted into an Olive Tree ??

    Or are BAPTIZO/PLACED into the Body of Christ , 1 Cor 12:13 ??

    I , OPT for 1 Cor 12:13 !!

    If you believe in GRAFTING you can not be Pre-mil , but A-mil !!

    dan p

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