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Thread: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

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    Hi musterion

    My apologies for not responding to this before.
    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    as best I can tell the ones we know of seemed to have had exposure to the O.T. Scriptures of the Jews and (b) if one of them wanted to BECOME right with God, they had to become proselytes.
    Here's what I believe about Gentiles being circumcised.

    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...6&postcount=70


    So Bob's statement is biblically correct: the nations were all far from God and had been since Babel.
    Bob used Ephesians 2:17 with his statement, "Up until the Lord cast away Israel, the Gentiles (all the other nations of the world) were far from God". It's funny he does because there are two groups in that one verse and both groups: the "you which were afar off" (strangers from the promise) and the "them that were nigh" (in the promise) contain "Gentiles".

    Ephesians 2:17 KJV And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

    Here's a post about who I believe the two groups in the one Body are.


    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...2&postcount=73
    Last edited by heir; January 28th, 2014 at 12:05 PM.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    The point was and still is: that over and over The Plot forces circumcision on all Gentiles, but that's not what the scriptures show. If a Gentile (blesser) wanted to be partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree, yes, but not all Gentiles had to be circumcised. They were in the promise, they had a hope if they sought a blessing through Israel; blessed the seed of Abraham; blessed Israel as per Genesis 12:1-3 KJV.
    don't agree

    here is your gentiles being blessed :

    1Ki 5:10 So Hiram supplied Solomon with all the timber of cedar and cypress that he desired,
    1Ki 5:11 while Solomon gave Hiram 20,000 cors of wheat as food for his household, and 20,000 cors of beaten oil. Solomon gave this to Hiram year by year.

    the question is Tyre saved (the kingdom) because they traded with Israel ?


    Tyre was blessed for trading with Israel but saved



    Of the 2 examples of Gentiles in the so called NT, before the Body of Christ began in Acts 9, I see no circumcision required of these two (one was a woman) for a blessing, but rather them going through the proper channels of recognizing their place and/or blessing Israel. And that even Cornelius (not in the Body either), was a blesser.
    Cornelius is in acts 10

    Israel was cut off when Jesus called Saul and started the body in acts 9



    My point stands.
    that there might have been uncircumcised gentiles that were saved ?



    As to Galatians 2:9 you quoted, since Bob believes Israel was "cut off" and the "Gentiles grafted in" in Acts 9, what does Bob do to reconcile the fact that Paul went to the Jew first and also to the Greek throughout the Acts period and why?
    * p.59 of the plot
    Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

    that means Jews no longer have their calling.
    the have been lowered to gentile status.


    *also he was sent
    Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:



    Who does The Plot say those people are?


    Also, does Bob "use" the King James Bible to show there are two separate gospels in Galatians 2:7 KJV or does he continue to use the (per)verted "New" King James book like you do that makes it appear as if there is only one gospel in the verse?
    looks like 2 to me

    kjv Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;






    We're told to study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV), not "rightly dividing the word of God" as some say. The "word of truth" is specific. It is the "gospel of your salvation", but when asked earlier in the thread if and where 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV (the word of truth) is declared as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth you said that Bob "did not use those verses in The Plot". Galatians 2:9 is not the key. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV is. The Plot has no "word of truth" to rightly divide.
    how do you divide the word by understanding Jesus and the twelve were writing to the circumcised (those under the law)

    Paul was writing to the uncircumcised .



    How I "feel" about Bob has not entered into this discussion. I don't base my disagreements with The Plot on my feelings. I have scriptural reasons of which I've shared a few as to why The Plot is in error.
    your reading it wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    don't agree

    here is your gentiles being blessed :

    1Ki 5:10 So Hiram supplied Solomon with all the timber of cedar and cypress that he desired,
    1Ki 5:11 while Solomon gave Hiram 20,000 cors of wheat as food for his household, and 20,000 cors of beaten oil. Solomon gave this to Hiram year by year.

    the question is Tyre saved (the kingdom) because they traded with Israel ?


    Tyre was blessed for trading with Israel but saved
    I have no idea what you are talking about and frankly, I don't think you do either.





    Cornelius is in acts 10

    Israel was cut off when Jesus called Saul and started the body in acts 9
    Cornelius was an example of a blesser of which I see no circumcision required. I've made it clear on more than one occasion in this thread that I don't believe he was in the Body of Christ.




    that there might have been uncircumcised gentiles that were saved ?
    You seem to be confused. I never said saved. I'm not sure why you are bringing up gentiles being "saved" in the OT.

    I was trying to show that not all Gentiles had to be circumcised as Bob said over and over in The Plot. Some Gentiles were in the promise and were blessed ("worthy") of a blessing because of it. I made no mention of their salvation.


    * p.59 of the plot
    Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

    that means Jews no longer have their calling.
    National Israel fell, but God did not cast away His people which He foreknew (Romans 11:1-2 KJV). There was (at that present time) a remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew (Romans 11:5 KJV) The Jew still had the advantage.

    Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

    Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

    We've been over this.

    We see Paul going to the Jew first throughout the Acts period until there aren't anymore who will believe. (Acts 28:24-31 KJV)

    the have been lowered to gentile status.
    Currently, yes. They are Loammi, not God's people (Hosea 1:9 KJV).

    *also he was sent
    Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
    I'm not sure what you are pointing this out for.

    Does Bob recognize and/or make mention of a remnant which God FOREKNEW at that present time? Who does he say that they are? All Gentiles or what?



    looks like 2 to me

    kjv Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
    Yes that's what the KJB says. Does Bob use it in The Plot to show there are two gospels or does he stick with the perverted New and improved New King James that makes it appear as if there is only one gospel in the verse to two different groups?

    how do you divide the word by understanding Jesus and the twelve were writing to the circumcised (those under the law)
    I rightly divide the word of truth from the gospel being preached in M, M, L or John.

    Paul was writing to the uncircumcised .
    Paul wrote to Gentiles both in and out of the promise. Paul also found the Gentiles to whom he was first sent in the synagogue of the Jews. What in the world were they doing there?

    your reading it wrong
    I read it perfectly fine.
    the only thing i get from you is you don't like Bob Enyart and that's ok
    If I were someone who had no issue and sat here ad hom you would have a valid point, but I haven't. I have doctrinal disagreements with The Plot whose author is: Bob Enyart. I don't care who wrote it: when they're wrong, they're wrong. You opened a thread called, "Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?" I've shown in more than a few places where he's wrong.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Cornelius was an example of a blesser of which I see no circumcision required. I've made it clear on more than one occasion in this thread that I don't believe he was in the Body of Christ.
    Cornelius was not circumcised which means he was saved apart from Israel and is in the body.

    if he was in the kingdom he would have had to be circumcised.

    Act 10:15 And the voice spoke to him again the second time, What God has made clean, you do not call common
    God is showing peter Jews and gentiles are equal



    I was trying to show that not all Gentiles had to be circumcised as Bob said over and over in The Plot. Some Gentiles were in the promise and were blessed ("worthy") of a blessing because of it. I made no mention of their salvation.
    Some Gentiles were in the promise .What does "in the promise" mean?

    are you saying bob says gentiles needed to be circumcised to be blessed ?

    if yes page # ?

    #70 I don't believe all Gentiles had to be circumcised If they wanted to be partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree, yes


    and

    I was trying to show that not all Gentiles had to be circumcised....
    Some Gentiles were in the promise and were blessed ("worthy") of a blessing because of it.
    you say gentiles have to be circumcised then no they don't






    National Israel fell, but God did not cast away His people which He foreknew (Romans 11:1-2 KJV). There was (at that present time) a remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew (Romans 11:5 KJV)
    unbelieving Israel was cut off

    The Jew still had the advantage.

    Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

    Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

    We've been over this.

    We see Paul going to the Jew first throughout the Acts period until there aren't anymore who will believe. (Acts 28:24-31 KJV)
    Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

    besides Rom 3:2 what other advantages ?

    I hope you not saying Paul going to the Jews 1st was an advantage.




    Does Bob recognize and/or make mention of a remnant which God FOREKNEW at that present time? Who does he say that they are? All Gentiles or what?
    1.no

    (bob's an open theist)
    all i found in the plot was
    p.309
    there has always been and always will be a remnant of Jews


    Yes that's what the KJB says. Does Bob use it in The Plot to show there are two gospels or does he stick with the perverted New and improved New King James that makes it appear as if there is only one gospel in the verse to two different groups?
    Did you read "the plot" ?

    to the circumcised
    Jesus taught forgive or you will not be forgiven

    Mat_6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,
    Mat_6:15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

    to the uncircumcised
    Paul taught forgive because you are forgiven

    Col_3:13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

    ---
    to the circumcised
    peter taught follow Christ
    1Pe 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

    to the uncircumcised
    Paul taught follow Paul
    1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
    Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages


    definitely 2 different Gospels

    I rightly divide the word of truth from the gospel being preached in M, M, L or John.
    so you keep the law
    Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.



    Paul wrote to Gentiles both in and out of the promise.
    since i don't know what you mean by "in and out of the promise"
    i will leave that alone till you define that.

    Paul also found the Gentiles to whom he was first sent in the synagogue of the Jews. What in the world were they doing there?
    so if we had that today then what ?
    we would have a synagogue of equally lost people.

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    I feel your pain, sister heir
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    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
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    Let me try:

    There were Gentiles in the "commonwealth of Israel" during Acts. Some were circumcised and became Jews , and some were uncircumcised.

    These are the Gentiles Paul was sent to first. They were in the commonwealth of Israel and in the promise made to Abraham because they were with the Jews in the synagogue worshiping the God of Abraham.


    LATER, Paul was sent to Gentiles who were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel". They were outside of the promise made to Abraham. In short, pagans.


    This is what heir is showing you, waytogo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Bob, in The Plot sees all Gentiles as the same. For example: "Up until the Lord cast away Israel, the Gentiles (all the other nations of the world) were far from God."

    I disagree.
    Can you elaborate?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Can you elaborate?
    EDIT:

    Bob used Ephesians 2:17 with his statement, "Up until the Lord cast away Israel, the Gentiles (all the other nations of the world) were far from God". It's funny he does because there are two groups in that one verse and both groups: the "you which were afar off" (strangers from the promise) and the "them that were nigh" (in the promise) contain "Gentiles".

    Ephesians 2:17 KJV And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.I already did show the differences in Gentiles here,

    Here are who I believe the two groups in the one Body are:

    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...2&postcount=73
    Last edited by heir; January 31st, 2014 at 06:36 AM.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Let me try:

    There were Gentiles in the "commonwealth of Israel" during Acts. Some were circumcised and became Jews , and some were uncircumcised.

    These are the Gentiles Paul was sent to first. They were in the commonwealth of Israel and in the promise made to Abraham because they were with the Jews in the synagogue worshiping the God of Abraham.


    LATER, Paul was sent to Gentiles who were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel". They were outside of the promise made to Abraham. In short, pagans.


    This is what heir is showing you, waytogo.
    excellent!
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    can any one show me Paul teaching you have to have good works
    like the circumcised gospel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    can any one show me Paul teaching you have to have good works
    like the circumcised gospel?
    You will have to ask the circumcision, be it the catholics or "pentecostals".
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    EDIT:

    Bob used Ephesians 2:17 with his statement, "Up until the Lord cast away Israel, the Gentiles (all the other nations of the world) were far from God". It's funny he does because there are two groups in that one verse and both groups: the "you which were afar off" (strangers from the promise) and the "them that were nigh" (in the promise) contain "Gentiles".
    Yes, sister heir, this is important.

    There have always been Gentiles who were "near". There was provision for them under the Law. And there was provision for them in the Abrahamic covenant. And they didn't necessarily have to be circumcised.
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    EDIT:

    Bob used Ephesians 2:17 with his statement, "Up until the Lord cast away Israel, the Gentiles (all the other nations of the world) were far from God". It's funny he does because there are two groups in that one verse and both groups: the "you which were afar off" (strangers from the promise) and the "them that were nigh" (in the promise) contain "Gentiles".

    Ephesians 2:17 KJV And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.I already did show the differences in Gentiles here,

    Here are who I believe the two groups in the one Body are:

    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...2&postcount=73

    Heir,

    Did you assume that the Gentiles at the Gate and the Gentiles that went thru with circumcision were under the impression that or under a teaching that salvation was by works?

    I think I read that in your link. Israel was never cast off, I'm not understanding that either.

    If the purpose of the Law of Moses was to get people to work for their salvation then none of them could have been saved not even David. The purpose of that law was to make those believers attempt to reach sanctification thru the works of the law which produced spiritual immaturity and did not produce the spiritual maturity we can achieve in Christ thru grace living because the weakness of the flesh would use that law to sin more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Yes, sister heir, this is important.

    There have always been Gentiles who were "near". There was provision for them under the Law. And there was provision for them in the Abrahamic covenant. And they didn't necessarily have to be circumcised.
    Yes, amen, but we certainly cannot say the same thing about Gentiles like the Ephesians to whom Paul wrote the letter Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV (people like you and me).
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Let me try:

    There were Gentiles in the "commonwealth of Israel" during Acts. Some were circumcised and became Jews , and some were uncircumcised.

    These are the Gentiles Paul was sent to first. They were in the commonwealth of Israel and in the promise made to Abraham because they were with the Jews in the synagogue worshiping the God of Abraham.


    LATER, Paul was sent to Gentiles who were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel". They were outside of the promise made to Abraham. In short, pagans.


    This is what heir is showing you, waytogo.

    Where's an example of Paul interacting with proselytes?

    I don't recall seeing it in scripture. But I hadn't thought about it tho.

    I know Paul went to the Jews first in every city and then turned to the Gentiles via his "to the Jew first" policy.

    If they were anything like Elia, he really suffered.

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