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Thread: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    I keep waiting for some one to prove it wrong but mostly
    I get the fact that people don't understand "The Plot"

    "The Plot" \ Mid Acts Disp makes exegesis simple.
    The risk of writing any book is that you can get some things wrong and false premises lead to false conclusions. The Plot is no exception to that. It has problems. And since I know you will ask, a couple of them off the top of my head are:

    it sees all Gentiles in the Bible as the same

    Gentiles grafted in

    And now that I think about it, I don't recall 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV being declared as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth in The Plot (but if someone could point me to the page where it is, I would be thrilled to see it there).

    For the record and just so it's clear, I study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). I take issue with some of the things in The Plot because they are a hindrance to salvation, study and making all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    "The Plot" owe's its foundational assumptions to the basic flaws of Mid Acts Dispensationalism. I've not read the plot but I've interacted with the author. I've also read a copy of Bob Hill's book, "The Big Difference."

    I remain unconvinced...
    αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
    Worthy is the Lamb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dialogos View Post

    I remain unconvinced...
    Of what, specifically?
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Of what, specifically?
    Of the central premise.

    That there are two separate gospels, one to the circumcised and one to the gentiles.
    αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dialogos View Post
    Of the central premise.

    That there are two separate gospels, one to the circumcised and one to the gentiles.
    I'm not sure why people struggle with the fact that there is more than one gospel in the Bible: The gospel of the kingdom, the gospel of God, the gospel of Christ, the gospel of the circumcision, the gospel of the uncircumcision, the gospel of the grace of God...I'm sure I missed a couple. The angel preaches a gospel in Revelation. I don't know what that is called, but it's a gospel of judgment. There's more than one gospel in just this one verse (Galatians 2:7 KJV).

    To be clear, there's only gospel that is the power of God to save today; that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV

    It was a mystery hidden in the scriptures that Christ was dying for some men's sins until revealed to and through the apostle Paul (Romans 16:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV) and then later revealed that the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24 KJV an extension of the gospel of Christ, but not "according to the scriptures") would save people like you and me (Acts 22:21 KJV, Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV). That too was a mystery until revealed to and through the apostle Paul, but a different mystery, the mystery of the gospel (Ephesians 6:19 KJV). It was hid in God, unsearchable (Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV)!

    And what a glorious truth! You should thank God that He had a mystery concerning your salvation or you would have had no hope! I certainly do!
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dialogos View Post
    "The Plot" owe's its foundational assumptions to the basic flaws of Mid Acts Dispensationalism. I've not read the plot but I've interacted with the author. I've also read a copy of Bob Hill's book, "The Big Difference."

    I remain unconvinced...
    So why are you in this forum? That's a sincere, honest question because it sounds as if you're mind is quite firmly made up, esp. after having read Bob's book, which was pretty good.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    If a professing Christian is keeping any aspect of the Law (to which he died in Christ!) in order to keep himself saved, stay saved, prove he's saved or to be sanctified, then at the very least he has believed a false gospel of works. He or she may have truly believed the Gospel and so are regenerated and eternally secure in Christ, but is now walking not by faith but by the flesh and is on the path to self-righteousness. He or she needs to repent of it, per Paul's rebuke to the Galatians.-
    they are believing the gospel of the kingdom, to the Jews.

    In most cases though, I fear it is the sign of a devout, religious, sincere unbeliever who has been deceived and has never been saved - the sign of a member of Christendom but not of Christ
    i understand what your saying.
    some rely on the law when its about a relationship.

    for if we are saved or sanctified by keeping any aspect of the Law then Christ died for nothing, yes?
    correct

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    The risk of writing any book is that you can get some things wrong and false premises lead to false conclusions. The Plot is no exception to that. It has problems. And since I know you will ask, a couple of them off the top of my head are:
    it sees all Gentiles in the Bible as the same
    there are Jews and gentiles, that covers everyone

    Gentiles grafted in
    after Israel was cut off

    And now that I think about it, I don't recall 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV being declared as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth in The Plot (but if someone could point me to the page where it is, I would be thrilled to see it there).
    no one says you have to believe the plot to be saved.

    this exegesis works
    circumcised vs uncircumcised

    For the record and just so it's clear, I study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). I take issue with some of the things in The Plot because they are a hindrance to salvation, study and making all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery.
    hindrance to salvation

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    there are Jews and gentiles, that covers everyone
    Were there Gentiles called Jews?

    Were there Gentiles who had hope and were in the promise and others who had no hope and were strangers from the covenants of promise in the Bible?

    after Israel was cut off
    I'll get right to it.

    Romans 11:19-22 KJV Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

    Romans 11:19-22 KJV cannot be speaking about us yet The Plot (Bob) says it is on or around pages 57-60 and again on page 69 (and no doubt, elsewhere). How could it possibly be speaking of us saved and sealed members of the Body of Christ? It can't be! We can't be cut off! When we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ; that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) we are saved and sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (the earnest of our inheritance) unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, Ephesians 4:30 KJV)

    So what was going on in Romans 11?

    At that "present time" when Paul wrote the letter to the Romans there was a remnant according to the election of grace which God foreknew (Romans 11:1-6 KJV) would believe the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) and be established into the Body of Christ.

    The Romans had a standing in the olive tree by faith (faith in the gospel of God Romans 1:1-4 KJV). It was a faith praised by Paul (Romans 1:8 KJV) but it was not the mutual faith of them and Paul (Romans 1:12 KJV). These (at least one that Paul points out to use as an example) were resting in the law making their boast of God (Romans 2:17 KJV) and the tree was coming down (so to speak). Israel had fallen (Romans 11:11 KJV) and these Romans needed to continue in the goodness of God or they too would be cut off (Romans 11:22 KJV).

    There was only one way to continue in the goodness of God and that was to be established into the Body of Christ by Paul's my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began, but now (at that time) was made manifest (Romans 16:25-27 KJV). That's why Paul "longed to see" them (Romans 1:11 KJV). He was "ready to preach the gospel to you that are in Rome also" (Romans 1:15-17 KJV! And all through the Acts period, we see Paul gathering the remnant into the Body.

    That is the context of Romans 11 and the "grafted in". It has nothing to do with you, me or anyone else today in the dispensation of the grace of God (Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV)! You can't be grafted in without the possibility of being cut off. They're connected. By identifying us as "grafted in", The Plot (Bob) and those who repeat it are really telling others they can be cut off. It just might lead someone into thinking there is something that they need to do to be saved or stay saved as the text of Romans 11:19-22 KJV can be (and is often) twisted and used to manipulate people into making a fair shew in the flesh (Galatians 6:12-13 KJV). It should be dropped/edited out of The Plot. It's untrue and dangerous. Hence my comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    I take issue with some of the things in The Plot because they are a hindrance to salvation, study and making all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery.

    no one says you have to believe the plot to be saved.
    Of course not. I never said that or even implied it. They need trust the Lord believing the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). I'm having trouble finding it declared as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth in The Plot. It may very well be there, but I missed it. Do you have a page number?


    this exegesis works
    circumcised vs uncircumcised
    I'm not sure why you said this here, but...were there no circumcised Gentiles? What were they called, again? Who are the "we" "who first trusted in Christ" (Ephesians 1:12 KJV) and the "ye" that "also trusted" (Ephesians 1:13 KJV)? IOW, who were the two groups in the one Body?
    Last edited by heir; January 24th, 2014 at 08:21 AM. Reason: add comment

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    There are other issues with The Plot and no doubt others who have much more knowledge of the scriptures than I. I hope to see those people in the thread so we can as Paul beseeches us to:

    1 Corinthians 1:10 KJV Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

    We need to get on the same page; the scriptures being the final authority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    We need to get on the same page; the scriptures being the final authority.
    That's very easy to say but - just being honest here - it really says nothing. If you asked a Pentecostal, a So. Baptist, an indy/fudie Baptist, an AoG, a CoC, a Presbyterian, a Methodist, a Lutheran, a MAD, an Acts 28, or your garden variety non-denom evangelical "How do you suggest we all get on the same page, Scripturally speaking?" each will offer varying (sometimes irreconcilably contradictory) interpretive systems and frameworks which they'd insist elevates Scripture as "the final authority" while refuting everyone else's system as false.

    That's the way it is but the problem is obvious: since God does not author confusion among believers, they cannot all be correct. Someone HAS to be wrong.

    So which one of them is right, if anyone is?
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  19. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    That's very easy to say but - just being honest here - it really says nothing.
    I am speaking to those who are "MAD", as they say. This thread is titled "Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?". This is a place for "Acts 9 (or MidActs) Dispensationalism acknowledges the scriptural presentation of the dispensation of grace having begun with, not before, Paul; and its adherents accept the admonishment of Jesus Christ Himself that members of the Body of Christ follow Paul as he followed Christ."

    And yes, I assume everyone would like to follow Paul and be in agreement with the scriptures and each other although there are disagreements. Paul knew there must be also heresies among us (1 Corinthians 11:19 KJV) and it didn't stop him from beseeching us to speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment (1 Corinthians 1:10 KJV). If we don't discuss the disagreements we can't exactly get to the same page, now can we?

    The thread is here. I take issue with some of the things in The Plot. I replied. I hope the discussion takes off. It's been a long time since TP was written and there are problems in it that I don't think have ever been addressed. I'm not about to hijack this thread. I think it an important one.

    see ya' round
    Last edited by heir; January 24th, 2014 at 04:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    I'm not sure why people struggle with the fact that there is more than one gospel in the Bible: The gospel of the kingdom, the gospel of God, the gospel of Christ, the gospel of the circumcision, the gospel of the uncircumcision, the gospel of the grace of God...I'm sure I missed a couple. The angel preaches a gospel in Revelation. I don't know what that is called, but it's a gospel of judgment. There's more than one gospel in just this one verse (Galatians 2:7 KJV).
    And there also appear to be a plethora of kingdoms in the bible as well.

    The kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of the beloved Son, the kingdom of David, and the Kingdom of Christ and God (not sure how that works since each of these must be different kingdoms and all.



    Which one of these kingdoms will be in affect when Jesus returns? Will it be the kingdom of God, or the Kingdom of our father David? When does the Kingdom of Christ and God (Eph 5:5) come? What's the difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God?
    When does the kingdom of our father David get inaugurated (Mark 10:10)? In the New Heavens and New Earth, which kingdom will that be?

    So many kingdoms and yet they must all be distinct because scripture calls them by different names, right?




    Dispensationalism is based on the faulty application of an erroneous hermeneutic on the word "gospel" that applied to any other word in the bible demonstrates how faulty is that hermeneutic.
    αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
    Worthy is the Lamb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dialogos View Post
    Dispensationalism is based on the faulty application of an erroneous hermeneutic on the word "gospel" that applied to any other word in the bible demonstrates how faulty is that hermeneutic.
    Feel free to open up a thread. Maybe someone like tet will join in and you two can post to your little hearts desire.

    have a nice day

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    I am speaking to those who are "MAD", as they say. This thread is titled "Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?". This is a place for "Acts 9 (or MidActs) Dispensationalism acknowledges the scriptural presentation of the dispensation of grace having begun with, not before, Paul; and its adherents accept the admonishment of Jesus Christ Himself that members of the Body of Christ follow Paul as he followed Christ."

    And yes, I assume everyone would like to follow Paul and be in agreement with the scriptures and each other although there are disagreements. Paul knew there must be also heresies among us (1 Corinthians 11:19 KJV) and it didn't stop him from beseeching us to speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment (1 Corinthians 1:10 KJV). If we don't discuss the disagreements we can't exactly get to the same page, now can we?

    The thread is here. I take issue with some of the things in The Plot. I replied. I hope the discussion takes off. It's been a long time since TP was written and there are problems in it that I don't think have ever been addressed. I'm not about to hijack this thread. I think it an important one.

    see ya' round
    Sorry, I didn't see where you were asking it as a rhetorical question. I meant no offense.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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