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Thread: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

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    the word grace does not even appear in the book of Leviticus

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So what?
    it is about truth

    you need to prove Moses taught them it was not necessary to keep the law.

    Num 15:32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day.
    Num 15:33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation.
    Num 15:34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him.
    Num 15:35 And the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    it is about truth

    you need to prove Moses taught them it was not necessary to keep the law.
    I never said that they were not to keep the law but instead I showed that those under the law were saved by grace through faith:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham" (Ro.4:16).

    The only answer you had for this verse is the idea that even though they were saved by grace they still had to do works in order to be saved.

    All you proved is the fact that you do not even know what it means to be saved on the principle of grace.

    you are wrong again
    You do not understand this promise which the Lord made to David in regard to the land:

    "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).

    This promise has never been fulfilled but it will without condition because the Lord swore that it will be fulfilled:

    "I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I never said that they were not to keep the law
    so you admit they were under the law and were to keep the law.


    why were they to keep the law ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    so you admit they were under the law and were to keep the law.


    why were they to keep the law ?
    In order to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Ex.19:5-6).

    We also see what Paul said about those who believe:

    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).

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    Originally Posted by way 2 go
    so you admit they were under the law and were to keep the law.


    why were they to keep the law ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    In order to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Ex.19:5-6).
    Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;
    Exo 19:6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel."

    Exo 24:7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient."
    Exo 24:8 And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."

    so now we have the law added to the covenant of circumcision

    Exo 32:31 So Moses returned to the LORD and said, "Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold.
    Exo 32:32 But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written."
    Exo 32:33 But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.


    "blot out of my book"
    which means they were in the book and now they are not


    We also see what Paul said about those who believe:

    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).
    that is for us now

    had Jesus Christ come in the flesh in Moses time .NO
    then people had to keep the law or get blotted out of Gods book

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    so now we have the law added to the covenant of circumcision
    Yes, a person could obtain eternal life by keeping the law but he had to keep it perfectly or he is guilty of all:

    "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law" (James 2:9-11).

    Since being guilty of all cannot possibly save anyone are you saying that the Jew who lived under the law had to live a sinless life in order to be saved?

    Exo 32:31 So Moses returned to the LORD and said, "Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold.
    Exo 32:32 But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written."
    Exo 32:33 But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.
    Yes, out of the book of physical life or the book of the living. And we see the same thing here:

    "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ez.18:20).

    However, we see that as far back as David his sins were not imputed to him:

    "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:6-8).

    So the Jewish believer who lived under the law through out time received the righteousness of God APART FROM WORKS.

    that is for us now
    Are you saying that it wasn't true for those who lived under the law at the time when Paul wrote these words?:

    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Yes, a person could obtain eternal life by keeping the law but he had to keep it perfectly or he is guilty of all:
    covered this here #281

    Originally Posted by way 2 go #281
    Lev 4:27 "If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in
    doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
    Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat,
    a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
    Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings,
    and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD.
    And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

    the Goat in these verses does not agree with you

    "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law" (James 2:9-11).
    yes one sin was enough to have to make Atonement.




    Since being guilty of all cannot possibly save anyone are you saying that the Jew who lived under the law had to live a sinless life in order to be saved?
    Atonement.



    Yes, out of the book of physical life or the book of the living. And we see the same thing here:

    "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ez.18:20).
    thank you for proving my point, not just physical death but spiritual too




    However, we see that as far back as David his sins were not imputed to him:

    "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:6-8).
    there was no atonement for murder or adultery, God showed mercy
    but David kept the law

    1Ki 3:14 And if you will walk in my ways, keeping my statutes and my commandments, as your father David walked



    So the Jewish believer who lived under the law through out time received the righteousness of God APART FROM WORKS.
    where does it say that in the law ?


    Are you saying that it wasn't true for those who lived under the law at the time when Paul wrote these words?:

    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).

    Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    that is for us now / today

    had Jesus Christ come in the flesh in Moses time .

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    yes one sin was enough to have to make Atonement.
    Yes, and that is true of the Gentiles as well.

    Atonement.
    Yes, also true in regard to the Gentiles.

    thank you for proving my point, not just physical death but spiritual too
    I did not prove your point. Instead, the sins of those who have faith are not imputed to them, as witnessed by what is said about one under the law who lived centuries ago:

    "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:6-8).

    And Paul's words which follow make it plain that David was not the only Jew who received this blessedness:

    "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness" (Ro.4:9).

    where does it say that in the law ?
    Are Paul's words not good enough for you? Will you consider believing what the Lord Jesus said to those who lived under the law?:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

    If we cannot trust what He said there then who can we trust?

    Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    that is for us now / today
    But since Paul wrote those words in the first century it had to apply to the Jews living at that time. And besides that, Paul makes it plain that those who were then living under the law were saved by grace through faith:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

    I do not think that you have a proper understanding in regard to the principle of "grace" whereby all men are saved. Otherwise, you would not continue to insist that the Jews could not be saved apart from doing works of one kind or another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Originally Posted by way 2 go
    yes one sin was enough to have to make Atonement.
    Yes, and that is true of the Gentiles as well.

    Yes, also true in regard to the Gentiles.
    Gentiles didn't have the law or worship the true God

    did you forget circumcision \ the law was given to Jews to make
    them a separate people



    I did not prove your point. Instead, the sins of those who have faith are not imputed to them, as witnessed by what is said about one under the law who lived centuries ago:

    "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:6-8).
    David's sin of adultery & murder were forgiven
    but not saul's sins
    1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him.


    And Paul's words which follow make it plain that David was not the only Jew who received this blessedness:Ro.4:9
    not the Jews that came out of Egypt
    Num 14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

    not this guy either
    Num 15:33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation.
    Num 15:34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him.
    Num 15:35 And the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."




    Are Paul's words not good enough for you? Will you consider believing what the Lord Jesus said to those who lived under the law?:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

    If we cannot trust what He said there then who can we trust?
    had Jesus come in the flesh in Moses time
    then it does not apply to people in Moses time Mat 13:17






    But since Paul wrote those words in the first century it had to apply to the Jews living at that time. And besides that, Paul makes it plain that those who were then living under the law were saved by grace through faith:
    Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

    does not say those under the didn't have to keep the law

    those under the law had to keep the law with works of cutting off of the flesh.

    those of us without the law don't have to have works
    Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (for us today not for Moses )

    Moses had to have works
    Exo 4:24 At a lodging place on the way the LORD met him and sought to put him to death.
    Exo 4:25 Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it and said, "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!"


    I do not think that you have a proper understanding in regard to the principle of "grace" whereby all men are saved.
    Otherwise, you would not continue to insist that the Jews could not be saved apart from doing works of one kind or another.

    Jews had to continue in the faith & keep the law that was their covenant
    and it is by grace that we all don't get what we deserve when we deserve it

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    Gentiles didn't have the law or worship the true God
    The Gentiles have the law written in their hearts and the conscience bears witness to that law (Ro.2:14-25).

    had Jesus come in the flesh in Moses time
    then it does not apply to people in Moses time Mat 13:17
    Let's talk about the Jews who lived under the law at the time when Christ came. Were they saved by faith alone? Here is what the Lord Jesus said to them:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

    Did the Jews who lived under the law at the time when Paul was writing his epistles saved by faith alone?:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

    Do you think that the Jews who lived under the law at the time when Paul wrote the following words received the blessedness spoken of here?:

    "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness" (Ro.4:6-9).
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; March 27th, 2014 at 11:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The Gentiles have the law written in their hearts and the conscience bears witness to that law (Ro.2:14-25).
    when did that happen? hint not in Moses time

    Jer_31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    will = future

    Let's talk about the Jews who lived under the law at the time when Christ came. Were they saved by faith alone? Here is what the Lord Jesus said to them:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
    but before that he said ...

    Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you."




    Did the Jews who lived under the law at the time when Paul was writing his epistles saved by faith alone?:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

    Do you think that the Jews who lived under the law at the time when Paul wrote the following words received the blessedness spoken of here?:

    "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness" (Ro.4:6-9).
    Israel was cut off when Paul received the dispensation of grace
    works of the law are no longer necessary now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    when did that happen? hint not in Moses time
    So you not think that a person possessed a "conscience" even as late as Moses 'time?

    Israel was cut off when Paul received the dispensation of grace
    works of the law are no longer necessary now.
    So none of the Jews who lived from the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth and afterward had to do works to be saved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So you not think that a person possessed a "conscience" even as late as Moses 'time?
    conscience ? yes

    law was written in stone not on their hearts

    Deu 12:8 "You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,



    So none of the Jews who lived from the time the Lord Jesus walked the earth and afterward had to do works to be saved?
    works were necessary until Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    conscience ? yes

    law was written in stone not on their hearts
    "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another" (Ro.2:14-15).

    works were necessary until Paul
    How is it possible that you cannot understand what the Lord Jesus said here to the Jews who lived under the law?:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

    Do you think that the lord Jesus just forgot to mention works?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another" (Ro.2:14-15).
    when was the law written in their hearts ?
    Jer 31:33


    Do you think that the lord Jesus just forgot to mention works?
    no he didn't .


    Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

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