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Thread: Bob Enyart's "The Plot" is he right?

  1. #616
    Super Moderator JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Probably?

    Paul himself said that other Christians were in the Body of Christ before he was:

    "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me"
    (Ro.16:7).
    Uh, no. As I've told you before, "in Christ" does not necessarily mean "in the Body of Christ." This is a hasty generalization.

    It is not difficult to understand that when Paul uses the words "in Christ" he is referring to being in the Body of Christ, as witnessed what he said here:

    "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:4-5).
    Jerry, it's not that I don't see the argument you're making. I get it. You see "in Christ" and think "Body of Christ" because those in the Body of Christ are "in Christ."

    But again, that's a hasty generalization.

    Here's what's happening with your argument:

    All A are a subset of B, but not all B are A.

    All [members of the Body of Christ] are a subset of [people who are "in Christ"], but not all [people who are "in Christ"] are [members of the Body of Christ].

    We can also know that when Paul speaks of others being "in Christ" the term "in Christ" always means the same thing:
    It always means "in Christ." As in, "This person is a believer."

    But it DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN "This person is a member of the Body of Christ.


    "Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new"
    (2 Cor.5:16-17).

    Of course the "new creation" is the New Man, the Body of Christ which Paul speaks of here:

    "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:14-16).

    Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following about the words "new creation":

    "This 'new creation,' this 'one new man,' this 'joint body,' formed of Jews and Gentiles made one in Christ, is called 'His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all' (Eph. 1:23)" (Stam, True Spirituality [Berean Literature Foundation, 1984], 48,50).
    I'm going to stick with the plain reading of scripture over some historical person's interpretation of it.

    However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. - 1 Timothy 1:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...6&version=NKJV

    But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. - Galatians 2:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV

    Therefore, we can understand that there is evidence that other Christians were baptized into the Body of Christ before Paul was and those Christians had to be Jewish believers such as the Twelve.


    Begging the question is a logical fallacy.

  2. #617
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. - Galatians 2:7-9
    Peter's commission was changed after Israel was temporarily set aside because in his first epistle he is no longer preaching the gospel of the kingdom. Instead, he was preaching the gospel which Paul referred to as "the preaching of the Cross":

    "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed...Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.2:24, 1:18-19).

    That is not the same gospel which the Twelve preached at Luke 9:6 because at that time they didn't even know the Lord Jesus was going to die (Lk.18:33-34).

    Are you now going to argue that the gospel which the Twelve preached at Luke 6:9 is the same one which Peter spoke of in his first epistle?

  3. #618
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    I have listened to Bob Enyart's The Plot series & I am reading the book.
    He settles a bunch of doctrinal debates like:

    are believers under the law?
    is baptism necessary ?
    does salvation by faith require works ?
    can believers lose their salvation ?
    must believers keep the sabbath ?
    is the rapture before the tribulation ?
    is there a rapture ?

    the post I have read against Mid Acts Disp have not even dented this doctrine nor can they settle these debates once and for all like The Plot has for me.
    I keep waiting for some one to prove it wrong but mostly
    I get the fact that people don't understand "The Plot"

    "The Plot" \ Mid Acts Disp makes exegesis simple.

    the question is :

    can you show how your exegesis is correct
    and that Mid Acts Disp exegesis is wrong ?
    This needs to start over now that I have the book, The Plot.

    One point Bob made that really intrigued me was concerning the men named Ananias, and how they were figures of Israel, and what God was doing with Israel. What an incredible book the Bible is, and Bob does such a good job finding these tidbits that didn't seem to have much meaning in and of themselves.

    Anyone have any thoughts on this?

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  5. #619
    Get your armor ready! Tambora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    This needs to start over now that I have the book, The Plot.

    One point Bob made that really intrigued me was concerning the men named Ananias, and how they were figures of Israel, and what God was doing with Israel. What an incredible book the Bible is, and Bob does such a good job finding these tidbits that didn't seem to have much meaning in and of themselves.

    Anyone have any thoughts on this?
    Stripe was generous enough to mail me a copy of the book a few years ago.
    It does a good job of making a lot of things clear, and it only scratches the surface!
    Volumes could be written.


    Now that more here have The Plot book on hand, we could do a thread study chapter by chapter if there is enough interest to do so.


    Another book called Things That Differ by C.F. Stam came out years earlier and it was very easy to read and follow how Paul's new ministry was different from the apostle's previous ministry and how the BOC is different from Israel.
    You can read it online: http://www.faithcomethbyhearing.net/...hat_differ.pdf

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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  7. #620
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Another book called Things That Differ by C.F. Stam came out years earlier and it was very easy to read and follow how Paul's new ministry was different from the apostle's previous ministry and how the BOC is different from Israel.
    Pastor Stam wrote the following:

    "Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations."
    (Cornelius Stam, Things That Differ, [Berean Literature Foundation, Twelfth Printing, 1985], 21).

    However, the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law makes it abundantly clear that the only requirement for them to be saved was "faith" and faith alone.

    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
    (Jn.6:47).

    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

    "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"
    (Jn.11:25-26).

    Now let us look at what is written here:

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
    (Jn.3:16).

    The word "whosoever" in this verse must include not only the Gentile believers as well as the Jews who lived under the law. So all people who believe in the Lord Jesus have in their possession everlasting life and they shall never perish. Besides that, the previous three verses which come straight from the lips of the Lord Jesus Christ and the only requirement which He mentioned for anyone to receive those spiritual blessings is believing. So there can be no doubt that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith apart from works. The following words are from the pen of the Apostle Paul:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
    (Ro.4:16).

  8. #621
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Pastor Stam wrote the following:

    "Note carefully that while God refuses works for salvation today, He required them under other dispensations."
    (Cornelius Stam, Things That Differ, [Berean Literature Foundation, Twelfth Printing, 1985], 21).

    However,
    Spoiler
    the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law makes it abundantly clear that the only requirement for them to be saved was "faith" and faith alone.

    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
    (Jn.6:47).

    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

    "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"
    (Jn.11:25-26).

    Now let us look at what is written here:

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
    (Jn.3:16).

    The word "whosoever" in this verse must include not only the Gentile believers as well as the Jews who lived under the law. So all people who believe in the Lord Jesus have in their possession everlasting life and they shall never perish. Besides that, the previous three verses which come straight from the lips of the Lord Jesus Christ and the only requirement which He mentioned for anyone to receive those spiritual blessings is believing. So there can be no doubt that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith apart from works. The following words are from the pen of the Apostle Paul:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
    (Ro.4:16).
    However, Jerry refuses to see how things differ, and refuses to consider why that is.

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  10. #622
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    However, Jerry refuses to see how things differ, and refuses to consider why that is.
    It is you who sees differences which are not there, especially concerning your silly ideas as to how those who lived under the law were saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    No one is saying our Lord's words are not true...Which words do you claim give life, Jerry?
    His words which He spoke to the Jews when He said He is the Christ:

    "Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me"
    (Jn.10:24-25).

    The Lord Jesus said He is the Christ and He said that He is the Son of God (Jn.10:36). Those who believed Him were born of God and received spiritual life:

    "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 Jn.5:1-5).

    "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name"
    (Jn.20:30-31).

    Again, the following statement of the Lord Jesus spoken to those who lived under the law was an "unconditional" statement:

    "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
    (Jn.6:63).

    What the Lord Jesus said there is either true or false. I have told you exactly what His words were which brought spiritual life and so I believe that what He said is true.

    On the other hand, you say that His words by themselves were not sufficient to bring spiritual life to those who lived under the law because none of them could be made alive spiritually apart from works. You still refuse to come to the light (Jn.3:19-21) and you continue to believe that the Spiritual words of the Lord and Savior are impotent.

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