User Tag List

Page 506 of 510 FirstFirst ... 6406456496503504505506507508509 ... LastLast
Results 7,576 to 7,590 of 7636

Thread: Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

  1. #7576
    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    On the road
    Posts
    6,177
    Thanks
    18,961
    Thanked 5,461 Times in 3,454 Posts

    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147586
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Prove it.

    There are three reasons why Hell is eternal.

    Reason 1: There is no other way.

    Jesus asked His Father, in the garden before he was taken to be executed, if there was any other way to bring salvation to mankind. Three times, He asked the Father if there was any other way:

    Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.”And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour?Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.”And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:36-44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

    He asked that if there was any other way that the cup of responsibility be passed from Him, but since there was no other way, because the debt that sin generates against the demands of justice is infinite, and only someone with infinite worth could pay that debt.

    Reason 2:

    Love must be freely given.

    If love can be compelled, if a woman just doesn't like a man, and he's been pursuing her and finds a way to give her a pill that now she likes him, if that were somehow ok, and not grotesque, well then maybe we could think that love could be compelled. But love cannot be compelled. Love must be freely given.

    Reason 3:

    The Bible emphatically tells us that those who reject God will live forever in separation from Him.

    If the punishment for sin was finite, if it was not eternal separation from God, then surely God, in all His creativity, could come up with a payment for salvation, something other than the life of His only Son. For there is nothing in all of existence, more precious, more valuable, of greater worth, of limitless atonement, than the life of God the Son, yet God the Son became flesh, dwelt among us, then offered Himself on the cross, was separated from the Father (which is death), the Father poured out His wrath on the Son to pay for our sin.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JudgeRightly For Your Post:

    Angel4Truth (November 1st, 2017),way 2 go (October 27th, 2017)

  3. #7577
    Gold level Subscriber JudgeRightly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    On the road
    Posts
    6,177
    Thanks
    18,961
    Thanked 5,461 Times in 3,454 Posts

    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147586
    “Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us?Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’ - Isaiah 14:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV

  4. #7578
    Eclectic Theosophist freelight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Bend, OR. USA
    Posts
    7,468
    Thanks
    2,744
    Thanked 1,755 Times in 1,262 Posts

    Blog Entries
    89
    Mentioned
    71 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1492452

    Lightbulb More to it than traditional beliefs about a place called 'hell'....much more!

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    There are three reasons why Hell is eternal.

    Reason 1: There is no other way.

    Jesus asked His Father, in the garden before he was taken to be executed, if there was any other way to bring salvation to mankind. Three times, He asked the Father if there was any other way:

    Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.”And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour?Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.”And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:36-44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

    He asked that if there was any other way that the cup of responsibility be passed from Him, but since there was no other way, because the debt that sin generates against the demands of justice is infinite, and only someone with infinite worth could pay that debt.
    The whole 'infinite' equation to so called 'sin' and 'punishment' doesn't hold water, and only is 'assumed' by various intellectual gymnastics and presuppositions. The gospel narrative here concerns Jesus own personal path in his service to 'God', while varied opinions carry on about just what his 'dying' accomplished. - different 'atonement' models can be assumed.


    Reason 2:

    Love must be freely given.

    If love can be compelled, if a woman just doesn't like a man, and he's been pursuing her and finds a way to give her a pill that now she likes him, if that were somehow ok, and not grotesque, well then maybe we could think that love could be compelled. But love cannot be compelled. Love must be freely given.
    Dont forget that divine LOVE is INFINITE. Our human expression or experience of such is limited, circumscribed and relative. God's is not. When you consider the infinity of love itself, perhaps you wouldnt put restrictions on it, since such a love is unconditional and unqualified in its very essence.

    As far as a 'relational exchange' between two personalities, yes....that love may be 'conditional' in some respects with 'response-ability' and how both 'relate' and enjoy each other's friendship.

    Reason 3:

    The Bible emphatically tells us that those who reject God will live forever in separation from Him.

    If the punishment for sin was finite, if it was not eternal separation from God, then surely God, in all His creativity, could come up with a payment for salvation, something other than the life of His only Son. For there is nothing in all of existence, more precious, more valuable, of greater worth, of limitless atonement, than the life of God the Son, yet God the Son became flesh, dwelt among us, then offered Himself on the cross, was separated from the Father (which is death), the Father poured out His wrath on the Son to pay for our sin.

    Again, the proposition above is all based on a premise of some 'sin' concept that must be 'atoned' for vicariously
    by Christ, which introduces other problems into the equation which would not exist if this 'model' were not imposed. I know this is a thread debating 'biblical' interpretations, but there are more than one, and since we are in open discussion, some that are problematic can be questioned.

    Also, since 'God' is the one underlying fundamental reality that sustains all conscious existence, all that is.....and is OMNIPRESENT....one could not be anymore seperated from 'God' (Source-energy) than a drop of water could be seperate from the OCEAN it derives its existence from, being ONE with IT.

    Just a few thoughts for now,...as I've covered this in its various aspects earlier in my ECT Blog-portal here

    I will continue to reiterate, that infinite love must by nature continue on into infinity, and have within it infinite potential. This means that love will continue to be what it IS no matter what choices or effects an individual soul is bringing into its own experience that seems to obscure, quench or confuse this 'love', AND since Love's will is always unchanging, Love will continue to be....and ACT towards a soul, as long as any soul has the capacity, opportunity and ability to RESPOND to that love.

    Hence God's love continues ON and ON into eternity, and fills completely and utterly the fullness of infinity. - any 'conditioning' on love or the experience of it, must be relative, limited, temporal, non-ultimate......UNLESS a soul COULD choose for itself a final and eternal death (disintegration/annihilation) of conscious existence as a 'person', by a complete rejection of life, and consummate embrace of iniquity, which naturally results in DEATH, in the ultimate sense for that individual life-stream. However, getting into the metaphysics of this is a complex matter, and certainly goes much DEEPER than any mere literal surface reading of certain verses in the Bible...which I go somewhat into in former commentary

  5. #7579
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Precariously balanced on top of a mineshaft
    Posts
    14,123
    Thanks
    8,071
    Thanked 6,567 Times in 4,374 Posts

    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147738
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    There are three reasons why Hell is eternal.

    Reason 1: There is no other way.

    Jesus asked His Father, in the garden before he was taken to be executed, if there was any other way to bring salvation to mankind. Three times, He asked the Father if there was any other way:

    Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.”And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed.Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour?Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.”And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. - Matthew 26:36-44 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

    He asked that if there was any other way that the cup of responsibility be passed from Him, but since there was no other way, because the debt that sin generates against the demands of justice is infinite, and only someone with infinite worth could pay that debt.

    Reason 2:

    Love must be freely given.

    If love can be compelled, if a woman just doesn't like a man, and he's been pursuing her and finds a way to give her a pill that now she likes him, if that were somehow ok, and not grotesque, well then maybe we could think that love could be compelled. But love cannot be compelled. Love must be freely given.

    Reason 3:

    The Bible emphatically tells us that those who reject God will live forever in separation from Him.

    If the punishment for sin was finite, if it was not eternal separation from God, then surely God, in all His creativity, could come up with a payment for salvation, something other than the life of His only Son. For there is nothing in all of existence, more precious, more valuable, of greater worth, of limitless atonement, than the life of God the Son, yet God the Son became flesh, dwelt among us, then offered Himself on the cross, was separated from the Father (which is death), the Father poured out His wrath on the Son to pay for our sin.
    This isn't "proof", this is just you trying to shoehorn verses into why in your opinion "hell" should be real along with subjective speculations. If love is freely given then it isn't coerced through threats such as the grotesque doctrine that you try and defend. If you think your doctrine is so "clear" then think again also, either that or keep with the "chick tract" brand of "Christianity".
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Arthur Brain For Your Post:

    freelight (October 27th, 2017)

  7. #7580
    Eclectic Theosophist freelight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Bend, OR. USA
    Posts
    7,468
    Thanks
    2,744
    Thanked 1,755 Times in 1,262 Posts

    Blog Entries
    89
    Mentioned
    71 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1492452
    ~*~*~

    As we contemplate the reality of infinite love, there can be no room for ECT...when love is the all-pervading and omnipresent reality upholding & sustaining all that is.

    ~*~*~

  8. #7581
    Over 5000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The North & the West
    Posts
    5,418
    Thanks
    666
    Thanked 1,279 Times in 1,032 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    278829
    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    ~*~*~

    As we contemplate the reality of infinite love, there can be no room for ECT...when love is the all-pervading and omnipresent reality upholding & sustaining all that is.

    ~*~*~
    Which is why it's such a terrible and stupid tragedy for people to choose ECT instead of receiving God's gift of salvation from it by believing His Gospel. Romans 10:9 (KJV)
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
    Ricky: "You also know how to be stupid."

  9. #7582
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Precariously balanced on top of a mineshaft
    Posts
    14,123
    Thanks
    8,071
    Thanked 6,567 Times in 4,374 Posts

    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147738
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Which is why it's such a terrible and stupid tragedy for people to choose ECT instead of receiving God's gift of salvation from it by believing His Gospel. Romans 10:9 (KJV)
    What's stupid is to believe that people consciously choose 'ECT' as if people somehow "know" that it's a fate, not to mention how callous such a view is.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  10. #7583
    Over 5000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The North & the West
    Posts
    5,418
    Thanks
    666
    Thanked 1,279 Times in 1,032 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    278829
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    What's stupid is to believe that people consciously choose 'ECT' as if people somehow "know" that it's a fate
    Wrongdoing and the penalty for it are inherently integrated, and they cannot be separated. Just laws reflect this integration, they don't create it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    , not to mention how callous such a view is.
    I don't see the callousness. It's either true or false, nonfiction or fictional. I don't think that callousness enters into it.
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
    Ricky: "You also know how to be stupid."

  11. #7584
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Precariously balanced on top of a mineshaft
    Posts
    14,123
    Thanks
    8,071
    Thanked 6,567 Times in 4,374 Posts

    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147738
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Wrongdoing and the penalty for it are inherently integrated, and they cannot be separated. Just laws reflect this integration, they don't create it.
    I don't see the callousness. It's either true or false, nonfiction or fictional. I don't think that callousness enters into it.
    Rather, it may be your idea of 'justice' for people to suffer interminably if they don't "choose" right in life but it isn't for most people and common sense dictates that people wouldn't consciously "choose" such a thing regardless.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  12. #7585
    Over 5000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The North & the West
    Posts
    5,418
    Thanks
    666
    Thanked 1,279 Times in 1,032 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    278829
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Rather, it may be your idea of 'justice' for people to suffer interminably if they don't "choose" right in life but it isn't for most people and common sense dictates that people wouldn't consciously "choose" such a thing regardless.
    It doesn't matter what my idea of justice is. Wrongdoing itself inexorably determines its own penalty for the wrongdoer, with only one exception; the Church will avoid its eternal penalty, in believing the Gospel. Romans 10:9 (KJV) Because of what the Lord has done (1Co15:3KJV) for His Body the Church (Eph5:25KJV).
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
    Ricky: "You also know how to be stupid."

  13. #7586
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Precariously balanced on top of a mineshaft
    Posts
    14,123
    Thanks
    8,071
    Thanked 6,567 Times in 4,374 Posts

    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147738
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    It doesn't matter what my idea of justice is. Wrongdoing itself inexorably determines its own penalty for the wrongdoer, with only one exception; the Church will avoid its eternal penalty, in believing the Gospel. Romans 10:9 (KJV) Because of what the Lord has done (1Co15:3KJV) for His Body the Church (Eph5:25KJV).
    You're right, it doesn't matter and nor do your doctrinal beliefs where it comes to the very same thing. You're just another parrot in effect.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  14. #7587
    Over 5000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The North & the West
    Posts
    5,418
    Thanks
    666
    Thanked 1,279 Times in 1,032 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    278829
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    You're right, it doesn't matter and nor do your doctrinal beliefs where it comes to the very same thing. You're just another parrot in effect.
    Yeah.

    But you're different.
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
    Ricky: "You also know how to be stupid."

  15. #7588
    Over 500 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    523
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 38 Times in 29 Posts

    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    12063
    Nihilo,
    re: " Wrongdoing itself inexorably determines its own penalty for the wrongdoer..."


    Stealing a candy bar is wrong. Any thoughts on what penalty is determined by this wrongdoing?

  16. #7589
    Over 5000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The North & the West
    Posts
    5,418
    Thanks
    666
    Thanked 1,279 Times in 1,032 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    278829
    Quote Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
    Nihilo,
    re: " Wrongdoing itself inexorably determines its own penalty for the wrongdoer..."


    Stealing a candy bar is wrong. Any thoughts on what penalty is determined by this wrongdoing?
    How much time do you think you'll need to divide any number by zero?

    That's how long you'll need to reconcile doing wrong, with you not being a wrongdoer.
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
    Ricky: "You also know how to be stupid."

  17. #7590
    Over 500 post club
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    523
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 38 Times in 29 Posts

    Blog Entries
    3
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    12063
    Nihilo,
    re: "How much time do you think you'll need to divide any number by zero? That's how long you'll need to reconcile doing wrong, with you not being a wrongdoer."


    But what is the actual penalty?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us