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Thread: Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
    I believe Jesus was saying something like "Let the dead bury the dead, metaphorically speaking".

    It was the metaphorically dead.

    Edit to add: I like your slogan, I agree. Baptists are not Protestants.
    Baptists are Protestants. What else are you wrong about?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    The first death is not physical death. Were you dead in your sins? That is the first death.

    The second death is annihilation.
    We are still conscious despite spiritual death. We are still conscious in eternal/second death because it refers to separation, not cessation.

    http://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinark View Post
    Take a look at the verses Doormat posted previously here. They are consistent with the annihilation intrepretation.
    And I just scratched the surface with those verses.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinark View Post
    Take a look at the verses Doormat posted previously here. They are consistent with the annihilation intrepretation.
    Take a look at Matt. 25. they are not.
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    Answer my questions and I will answer your questions:

    1. Do you still sin from time-to-time? Yes or no.
    2. Is sin a bad fruit? Yes or no.
    3. Can a good tree bear bad fruit? Yes or no.
    4. Did Jesus have the capacity to sin, i.e. was not impeccable? Yes or no.
    5. Is the body of Christ literally the body of God? Yes or no.
    1. Yes. Sinless perfectionism is not biblical in the temporal state.

    2. Sin is a wrong moral choice. It is not called a fruit, good or bad. It is volitional, lawlessness, rebellion, selfishness, disobedience. The fruit story relates to false prophets, etc., not sanctification/hamartiology.

    3. We are not trees, but free moral agents. Trees operate under the law of cause-effect. We operate under the law of love/choices/freedom.

    4. I take a minority view on the impeccability of Christ. Jesus was tempted, yet without sin. We are tempted, yet we sin. To deny that Jesus could have theoretically sinned is to deny His genuine humanity. Jesus is sinless because He did not sin, never will sin. There is no chance that He would or will sin. Jesus is not a tree, so consider Him a moral agent, not a plant.

    5. Jesus is the God-Man, one person with two natures. God is spirit. Jesus added humanity to His Deity without ceasing to be Deity. God became flesh (Word/Christ, not Father/Spirit), but His body is not God, but He as one person is God.

    Your turn:

    Is Jesus God Almighty or a created being?

    If you say He is God and worship Him as such, we are brothers quibbling over a doctrinal debate.

    If you deny He is God, you are a cultist, not a Christian. You are wasting your time talking about hell when your Christology is defective (salvific issue, unlike views on after life).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
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    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    And I just scratched the surface with those verses.
    The atheist is a poor exegete also. Those verses do not support annihilationism.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    We are still conscious despite spiritual death.
    What do you mean by "spiritual death?"

    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    We are still conscious in eternal/second death because it refers to separation, not cessation.
    Explain how one can exist separate from God when He sustains life. What other source of life do you imagine that would allow a person to have life while being separate from God? I have no idea what you mean by separate from God; the idea appears illogical.

    No thanks. I've studied the Bible and can clearly see what it states about the Day of the Lord.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    The atheist is a poor exegete also. Those verses do not support annihilationism.
    Who is to decide whether they support that intrepretation or not? Taking them at their literal face value suggests annihilationism. If you start with the assumption that your view must be correct and the annihilationist view is heretical, you can reinterpret and rationalize anything to be consistent with that view if you try hard enough.
    The universe itself is more impressive and majestic than any god could ever hope to be. The mind of man is an amazing byproduct of an amazing universe. We should relish that thought, marvel at it, and continue to unravel the mystery of not what is "behind" the universe, but what the universe is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    The atheist is a poor exegete also. Those verses do not support annihilationism.
    Your argument is dazzling.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Your turn:

    Is Jesus God Almighty or a created being?
    Jesus is God. You might have discerned that from my slogan/motto.

    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    If you say He is God and worship Him as such, we are brothers quibbling over a doctrinal debate.
    You failed the test. While you are my brother in a literal sense (Acts 17:28), you are not in a figurative sense (1Jn 3:8). Furthermore, you deny the deity of Christ by denying he was/is impeccable.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    4. I take a minority view on the impeccability of Christ. Jesus was tempted, yet without sin. We are tempted, yet we sin. To deny that Jesus could have theoretically sinned is to deny His genuine humanity. Jesus is sinless because He did not sin, never will sin. There is no chance that He would or will sin. Jesus is not a tree, so consider Him a moral agent, not a plant.
    Just curious. Since you believe God is the source of moral standards and determines what is and is not sinful, and since Jesus is God, wouldn't it have been logically impossible for Jesus to sin, since any action He could have taken or any thought He could of had would be, by definition, not sinful?
    The universe itself is more impressive and majestic than any god could ever hope to be. The mind of man is an amazing byproduct of an amazing universe. We should relish that thought, marvel at it, and continue to unravel the mystery of not what is "behind" the universe, but what the universe is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinark View Post
    Just curious. Since you believe God is the source of moral standards and determines what is and is not sinful, and since Jesus is God, wouldn't it have been logically impossible for Jesus to sin, since any action he could have taken or any thought he could of had would be, by definition, not sinful?
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
    Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

    Which verses in the Bible support ECT and which verses in the bible support the doctrine that the wicked perish instead?
    Why do you focus on the darkness, rather than the Light of the world?
    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Christian theology isn't to be in Christ.


    So, what?

    believe it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    Jesus is God. You might have discerned that from my slogan/motto.



    You failed the test. While you are my brother in a literal sense (Acts 17:28), you are not in a figurative sense (1Jn 3:8). Furthermore, you deny the deity of Christ by denying he was/is impeccable.
    I do not deny the Deity of Christ since I affirm that He is YHWH. He is uncreated Creator. He is God Almighty. He is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. This is NOT a denial of the Deity of Christ.

    The impeccability of Christ is another matter relating to anthropology, morals vs metaphysics, etc. You deny that He has a will, so you deny His humanity, another serious error in church history (if you do not deny His humanity...and I doubt you do, then I don't doubt His Deity...your argument is specious and shows your lack of theological background).

    We agree that Jesus is sinless. If I said He sinned, then you could whine.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinark View Post
    Just curious. Since you believe God is the source of moral standards and determines what is and is not sinful, and since Jesus is God, wouldn't it have been logically impossible for Jesus to sin, since any action He could have taken or any thought He could of had would be, by definition, not sinful?
    God's character is the basis for moral absolutes (leaving atheists with no basis for morality except co-opting Judeo-Christian principles).

    If Jesus murdered someone, lusted, committed adultery, worshipped idols or Satan, etc., then He would have sinned. He did none of these and was sinless.

    Will not is not cannot. The bottom line is that He is the God-Man, one person with two natures. He is the sinless Lamb of God and would never choose unintelligently.

    The Christian tradition/theology issues relate to original sin, Platonic influences (body/humanity is inherently sinful/evil), etc. I reject Augustinian original sin because sin is a volitional/mental choice, not a genetic substance. Body is not evil, but what we do with the body determines vice or virtue. The virgin birth allowed Deity to become humanity. It was not to keep Jesus sinless. Aquinas, etc. confused philosophical issues of being/metaphysics with moral/volitional issues.

    Atheists rightly stumble on bad theology (like hyper-Calvinism that makes God arbitrary and responsible for evil, etc.). Not all tradition is truth.

    My brother does not understand the history of dogma and is jumping to wrong conclusions (non sequitur...a denial of traditional impeccability is not a denial of His Deity).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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