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Thread: Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

  1. #31
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    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomlapalm View Post
    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
    Well, I suppose if we were to take the highly symbolic Book of Revelation completely literally that would be three. The Devil, The Beast, and The False Prophet.

    Can you find any verses that say "The wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead"? That's really what I'm looking for.

    Here's something to think about when you read the Book of Revelation. The BOR was written in the "Apocalyptic Style" which is characterized by an abundant use of symbolism. It might not be the best idea to grab a doctrine from the BOR and then use it to interpret all of the rest of scripture. A sound hermeneutical principle is to interpret less clear passages in the light of more clear passages. Don't start in Revelation and work backwards from there.

    Actually, that's just a friendly suggestion. You can do whatever you want. Bless you brother!

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    Over 500 post club False Prophet's Avatar
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    Jude 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

    There is still a place called hell, and people are going to burn there forever and ever.
    Rev 14 [11] "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by False Prophet View Post
    Jude 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

    There is still a place called hell, and people are going to burn there forever and ever.
    Rev 14 [11] "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

    Well, Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed by fire, and they are the example of those who undergo the punishment of eternal fire, so Jude 7 actually shows the opposite of eternal conscious torment.

    And you bring up a good point. We should look at the language of Revelation in the light of the rest of the scripture that it's language is taken from. The smoke rising in the BOR comes from a passage in Isaiah were the smoke of Edom's destruciton is said to rise forever. Edom was completely destroyed, so the language in the BOR refers to complete destruction, not eternal conscious torment.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Neg rep for calling scripture a doctrine of demons. Repent you demon possessed perverted of the truth.
    I didn't call scripture a doctrine of demons, just the interpretation that leads to ECT. The Bible teaches annihilation of the wicked.

    Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in [Gehenna].

    Gehenna is figurative for the destruction of the wicked on the Day of Lord.

    1Corinthians 3:10-19

    10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every manís work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every manís work of what sort it is.
    14 If any manís work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any manís work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
    18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
    19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

    Luke 17:26,27 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
    Don't you think that never ever having life again would be an everlasting punishment? Doesn't Matthew 25:46 say that one group goes to eternal life? And the other group? Do they also go to eternal life being tormented in Hell? No they go to eternal punishment, not eternal torment. The punishment is that they perish, they go to their second death, which is eternal.
    In Revelation, strong Greek words are used. They are tormented day and night forever and ever. Your group tries to redefine torment and forever and ever, but it is a rationalization that does not stand up to scrutiny.

    We also see the Beast/False Prophet still being tormented after 1000 years when Satan joins them. The lake of fire has Satan, demons, unregenerate men being tormented day and night forever and ever. There is no hint this is just the effects of a final punishment.

    Lk. 16 is not a parable, but even if it is, it conveys spiritual truth/reality (or Jesus is a false teacher, liar, misinformed). It portrays conscious torment after death, not cessation.

    Death is separation, not cessation. We have a spirit that will live forever by God's irrevocable design. This necessitates two destinies.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    He was wrong to make a stupid statement, but that does not prove he is a godless unbeliever.
    ECT is a doctrine of demons.

    If you believe it, then what you believe amounts to Eternal "Christian" Torture.

    Is that how you would like to punish your enemies if given the chance? Why or why not.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
    Thanks for quoting the Bible in support of your position, I see that not everyone does this. That's Romans 6:23 right? So are you saying that Jesus wasn't kidding when he said "Whosover believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life"?
    Perish does not mean atomize. A core of existence still can happen without cessation. Food perishes without disappearing.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    In Revelation, strong Greek words are used. They are tormented day and night forever and ever. Your group tries to redefine torment and forever and ever, but it is a rationalization that does not stand up to scrutiny.

    We also see the Beast/False Prophet still being tormented after 1000 years when Satan joins them. The lake of fire has Satan, demons, unregenerate men being tormented day and night forever and ever. There is no hint this is just the effects of a final punishment.
    Your misunderstanding about Revelation is in part because you are mixing the literal with the figurative. Here is a literal description of the consequences of "eternal fire."

    Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Note that Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today. They perished.

    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Lk. 16 is not a parable, but even if it is, it conveys spiritual truth/reality (or Jesus is a false teacher, liar, misinformed). It portrays conscious torment after death, not cessation.
    It is a parable. The rich man had a physical body, he wasn't in "Hell" but hades, yet he was suffering punishment in fire. It can't possibly be literal, but it's certainly a good figurative description of the hypocritical, unbelieving Israelites that Jesus had been dealing with.

    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Death is separation, not cessation.
    The wages of sin is the second death. The second death is cessation of life. If one is separated from the life of God, it is cessation of life because their is no other source of life.
    Last edited by Doormat; February 8th, 2013 at 02:22 PM.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    outside of time is outside of time, everything is eternal. The only death of a spiritual being is eternal existence apart from God.. Jesus said about physically alive people "let the dead bury their dead".

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomlapalm View Post
    outside of time is outside of time, everything is eternal. The only death of a spiritual being is eternal existence apart from God..
    What is the source of their life if they are existing apart from God? Does God no longer sustain them in their alleged state of eternal torture? How does that work?

    Quote Originally Posted by tomlapalm View Post
    Jesus said about physically alive people "let the dead bury their dead".
    He was speaking of the first death. You could call the first death ignorance or darkness.

    Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

    Whoever is not raised to life from the first death (the first resurrection) will experience the second death at the last resurrection.

    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    In Revelation, strong Greek words are used. They are tormented day and night forever and ever. Your group tries to redefine torment and forever and ever, but it is a rationalization that does not stand up to scrutiny.
    I am aware of the greek, I read the NT in greek everyday.
    The greek doesn't support eternal conscious torment any better than the english translations do.
    Death is separation, not cessation. We have a spirit that will live forever by God's irrevocable design. This necessitates two destinies.
    No, death is not separation. Death is the end of life. We are not inherently immortal. We only receive immortality as a gift from God. He doesn't give the gift of immortality to those who reject Him.

    Perish does not mean atomize. A core of existence still can happen without cessation. Food perishes without disappearing.
    I never said perish meant atomize. Perish means to die. Perish doesn't mean "to never perish but instead live forever in hell being tormented."

    A rationalization? No, Conditional Immortality is a doctrine that I arrived at after years of careful bible study. If Conditionalism is a rationalization, what is eternal tormentism? Tormentalism is a rationalization that doesn't stand up to careful scrutiny. But I understand that there aren't a lot of people who have scrutinized the doctrine of torment. So I am very careful to not say anything bad about people who believe in eternal conscious torment. It seems to be the "default setting". It takes bible study to stop believing in eternal conscious torment.

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    Well i'm Bi-polar. So i'm well aware that there is a mental hell in the here,and now sometimes.lol...Now were those times a constant eternal perpetual state,without the hope of CHRIST it would be hell. Even a descent feeling for all eternity without the hope of CHRIST would be a hell. People most often commit suicide when they feel there is absolutely no HOPE.

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    And since GOD is eternal, it would seem HE became a Sacrifice far more for eternal reasons than just temporal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeraphimsCherub View Post
    And since GOD is eternal, it would seem HE became a Sacrifice far more for eternal reasons than just temporal.
    I agree, His death gives us eternal life so we don't have to pay the wages of sin ourselves, which is death. The second death is eternal, so...yeah, I'm with you on this.

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