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Thread: Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    If punishment is not everlasting, then grammatically, neither is life.
    Don't you think that never ever having life again would be an everlasting punishment? Doesn't Matthew 25:46 say that one group goes to eternal life? And the other group? Do they also go to eternal life being tormented in Hell? No they go to eternal punishment, not eternal torment. The punishment is that they perish, they go to their second death, which is eternal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krsto View Post
    The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God through Jesus Christ is eternal life.
    Thanks for quoting the Bible in support of your position, I see that not everyone does this. That's Romans 6:23 right? So are you saying that Jesus wasn't kidding when he said "Whosover believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh View Post
    What do Habakkuk 2:11; Matthew 3:8-9, and Luke 19:39-40 mean to you?
    Habakkuk 2:11 is not saying anything about eternal torment. Does it say something different to you?
    "The stones of the wall will cry out,
    and the beams of the woodwork will echo it."

    Matthew 3:8-9 says And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
    Do you think that says that there is eternal torment in hell?

    Luke 19:39-40 says:
    Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”
    “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

    Is this the verse you meant to post? It doesn't really say "The wicked will go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead.

    What does John 3:16 say to you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    You exalt God's love above His holiness/justice/wrath.

    Not all sinners repent and receive His free gift.

    Your interpretation of everlasting punishment is a rationalization not demanded by the text.

    ECT is the biblical, historical, orthodox view. Tim should be able to google endless biblical support for it or read any number of books.

    The popular annihilation or post-mortem conversion or inclusivism or universalistic views are false teachings usually found in the kingdom of the cults.
    ECT is taught in more cults than Annihilationism. Are you really sure you want to go in that direction? I am asking what does the Bible teach, I am not asking what do the cults teach. Mormons and Muslims teach ECT. Does that make ECT wrong or right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomlapalm View Post
    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
    Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Nice verses, brother!
    Isn't there any verse that actually says that the wicked will live forever in torment in hell? Because I don't see that in any of these verses. Do you know what happens to a toad that is thrown into a lake of fire? The same thing that happens to everything else, it is burned up. Some of the verses you posted even come straight out and say "The lake of fire is the second death". That's what I believe the lake of fire is, death. The second death. The lake of fire is definitely not eternal life swimming in fire.
    Last edited by Timotheos; March 16th, 2013 at 09:30 PM.

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    aiōnios translated both eternal and everlasting

    1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
    2) without beginning
    3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

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    Matt 5 [22] "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court ; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court ; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
    Matt 5 [2]9 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
    Matt 25 [41]"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ;
    Matt 25 [46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
    James 3[6] And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity ; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
    2 Peter 2[4] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment ;
    Isaiah 66[24] "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched ; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

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    Mark 9 [43] "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by False Prophet View Post
    Matt 5 [22] "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court ; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court ; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
    Matt 5 [2]9 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
    Matt 25 [41]"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ;
    Matt 25 [46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
    James 3[6] And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity ; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
    2 Peter 2[4] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment ;
    Isaiah 66[24] "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched ; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."
    Mark 9 [43] "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.
    Today 09:11 AM
    Thanks for responding in my thread. May God bless you richly.

    The verses you posted talk about going into hell and going into fire. How do reconcile them with what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28?
    Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

    This says that we are to fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul, it doesn't say we are to fear the one who cannot destroy both body and soul but eternal torments body and soul forever.

    Also your references to fire, have you considered what fire does to the things it burns up? Why would the Bible use a metaphor to explain the exact opposite of what really happens?

    ETA, by the way, are you really a false prophet? I've never met one who comes right out and admits it up front. I wish more false prophets would do this. I'm just kidding though, I don't think you are a false prophet. Nice user-name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomlapalm View Post
    aiōnios translated both eternal and everlasting

    1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
    2) without beginning
    3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
    I totally agree with you on this definition. However that doesn't mean that eternal and everlasting punishment is the same thing as eternal and everlasting torment. If someone's punishment is death, the death is also eternal and everlasting. So Matthew 25:46 is inconclusive as to whether the eternal punishment is eternal torment or eternal death. If you look at many other passages, it is clear that the punishment is death. (ie Romans 6:23, 2 Thess 1:9, John 3:16, etc,)

    Another definition of aionios is "pertaining to the age", pertaining to the "aion". But I don't believe this makes any significant difference, since I believe that the coming "aion" or "age" will last forever.

    God Bless!

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    If punishment is not everlasting, then grammatically, neither is life.
    GR, you can do better than this. aionios means "an undefined period of time" - so it can be eternal, in the English sense of the word, or it can be just a long undefined period of time - like when God said no person shall inhabit a land forever that he destroyed in the OT yet people live there today.

    If you fail to accept aionios for what it means that means you have no real interest in the truth, only defending your Catholic doctrines (yes, Catholic, they invented the idea of eternal conscious torment).
    Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007

    Totally depraved doctrine.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Courtesy of Desert Reign

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Krsto For Your Post:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
    Thanks for quoting the Bible in support of your position, I see that not everyone does this. That's Romans 6:23 right? So are you saying that Jesus wasn't kidding when he said "Whosover believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life"?
    Yup, serious as can be.
    Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007

    Totally depraved doctrine.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Courtesy of Desert Reign

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
    I totally agree with you on this definition. However that doesn't mean that eternal and everlasting punishment is the same thing as eternal and everlasting torment. If someone's punishment is death, the death is also eternal and everlasting. So Matthew 25:46 is inconclusive as to whether the eternal punishment is eternal torment or eternal death. If you look at many other passages, it is clear that the punishment is death. (ie Romans 6:23, 2 Thess 1:9, John 3:16, etc,)

    Another definition of aionios is "pertaining to the age", pertaining to the "aion". But I don't believe this makes any significant difference, since I believe that the coming "aion" or "age" will last forever.

    God Bless!
    I was asked to show torment. Then you changed it to show eternal.

    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    read the verses know the meanings

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krsto View Post
    Yup, serious as can be.
    Well, I guess we should believe Jesus then, and reject Eternal Conscious Torment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomlapalm View Post
    I was asked to show torment. Then you changed it to show eternal.

    Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    read the verses know the meanings
    Yes, I agree with this verse, don't you? It says they go into the everlasting fire. And we all know what happens to something that goes into the everlasting fire, it gets consumed by the fire. The fire is also called a consuming fire. It consumes whatever it burns up.

    The thread was about eternal conscious torment or not from the beginning. Do you have any support at all for the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment?

    BTW, Thanks for discussing this with me, I appreciate your input.

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