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Thread: Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

  1. #991
    TOL Legend chrysostom's Avatar
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    poor tim got a taste of eternal torment
    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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    Some information about Gehenna.
    http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismb...-Afterlife.htm

    Considering Yeshua's references to it, Gehenna seems to be a real place, not a figment of rabbinical imagination and it most certainly has to do with the afterlife.

    See this link for information regarding what Gehenna is like.
    http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismb...-Afterlife.htm
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    From the article entitled, "Eternal Suffering or Eternal Destruction," by Stanley J. Grenz

    Click here for original article.

    Problems with the Annihilationist Position


    Whatever its appeal, the annihilationist position contains substantive problems. One is the biblical assertions that the wicked will suffer an “eternal” fate. Annihilationists argue that the word eternal refers to the permanence of the results of judgment and not to the duration of the act of punishment.

    Many Scripture passages, however, say more than this. Biblical writers use the word eternal to refer not only to the punishment of the lost but also to the bliss of the righteous (Matthew 25:46), suggesting a parallel that goes beyond the permanence of the pronounced judgment. The unending joy of the redeemed stands in contrast to the unending torment of the reprobate. Also, several New Testament texts indicate that the lost will suffer varying degrees of punishment. Jesus declared that those who have received greater opportunities for belief will suffer more severe condemnation (Matthew 10:15; 11:20-24; Luke 12:47, 48).

    While many annihilationists believe in different degrees of torment before extinction, they anticipate only one ultimate destiny for all the wicked, an undifferentiated nonexistence. But can a righteous Judge pronounce the same sentence of destiny upon the most despicable villain of human history as upon the seemingly moral pagan? Also, doesn’t passing out of existence trivialize the seriousness of the choices we make in life and the importance of our response to God’s loving offer of community?


    Here is another good article on ECT: http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell4.html
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    I am thinking hell may be a eternal thread on the issue of whether hell is forever. That would be torture.

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    Hell Jokes

    Two Guys From Detroit


    Two guys from Detroit, Michigan die and wake up in hell. The next day, the devil stops to check on them and sees them dressed in parkas, mittens and bomber hats, warming themselves around the fire.

    The devil asks them, "What are you doing? Isn't it hot enough for you?"

    The two guys reply, "Well, you know, we're from Michigan, the land of ice and snow and cold. We're just happy for a chance to warm up a bit, you know."

    The devil decides that these two aren't miserable enough and turns up the heat. The next morning, he stops by again and there they are, still dressed in their parkas, mittens and hats.

    The devil asks them again, "It's awfully hot down here, can't you guys feel that?"

    Again, the guys reply, "Well, like we told you yesterday, we're from Michigan, the land of ice and snow and cold. We're just happy to warm up a little bit, you know."

    The devil gets a little steamed up and he decides to fix the two guys. He cranks the heat up as high as it will go. The people are wailing and screaming everywhere. He stops by the room with the two guys from Detroit and finds them in light jackets and hats, grilling sausage and drinking beer.

    The devil is astonished. "Everyone down here is in abject misery , and you seem to be enjoying yourselves."

    The two Michiganders reply, "Well, ya know, we don't get too much warm weather up there in Detroit, we've just got to have a cookout when the weather is this nice."

    The devil is absolutely furious, he can hardly see straight. Finally, he comes up with an answer. These two love the heat because they have been cold all their lives. He decides to turn all the heat in hell off.

    The next morning, the temperature is below zero, icicles are hanging everywhere, the people are shivering so bad, they are unable to wail, moan or gnash their teeth.

    The devil smiles and heads for the room with the 2 Michiganders. He finds them back in their parkas, mittens and hats. They are jumping up and down and cheering.

    The devil was dumbfounded. "I don't understand. When I turn the heat up, you're happy. Now it's freezing cold, and you're happy. What is wrong with you two?"

    The Michiganders look at the devil in surprise. "Well, don't ya know - if hell froze over, that must mean. The Lions won the Super Bowl!"
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Spiritual death alienates the sinner from a holy God (Eph. 2 read it yourself).

    Physical depravity/death was a consequence of Adam's sin (Gen. 3; Rom. 5). It affects the whole race and is a consequence of Adam's original sin in the Garden. This should not be confused with moral depravity which is individual, personal, volitional.

    Death affects babies, sinless Jesus, redeemed saints, godless unbelievers. Moral depravity does not affect babies, sinless Jesus. Only those who sin with mental/moral capacity are sinners. A baby does not die because he sins, but because Adam sinned and maybe because of a deadly infection, run over by a car, etc. (not moral).

    God is seen in heaven manifested and worshipped (Rev. 4-5) in a way not seen in hell. The key is relational, not metaphysical, separation.

    Your arguments are lame and a denial of Scripture. We see two destinies and God's presence in wrath is not the same as His presence in heaven in glory, light, joy, beauty. The saints see, know, worship Him. The sinners are separated from this sense of goodness, greatness by their selfish rebellion. They experience the wrath of God and do not worship Him before the throne of God.

    Omnipresence does not mean God cannot be in Christ and that Jesus is on the throne, not in the lake of fire. You are hung up on a technicality and rejecting the forest of truth for a wrong view of one tree.
    Thats why its best to drown your babies, that way they won't be held accountable and risk the possiblity of going to eternal hellfire, no need to waste time living on earth when one can get on the express lane strait through the pearly gates into paradise.

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    According to Principia Discordia, Hell is reserved exclusively for those who believe in it. The lowest circle of Hell is reserved for those who believe in it on the basis that they'll go there if they don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omniskeptical View Post
    The awakening of the dead happens now, but the stuff about fire and worms is about a place on earth called gehenna. There are 2 verbs in those bible wordings which are present tense; and if the greek article is indefinite, it would be rendered "where a worm or yours doesn't die, and a fire doesn't get quenched." But this verse is about Gehenna and not the afterlife.
    So an earthly fire in which a worm does not perish?

    You should join Mensa.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    Thats why its best to drown your babies, that way they won't be held accountable and risk the possiblity of going to eternal hellfire, no need to waste time living on earth when one can get on the express lane strait through the pearly gates into paradise.
    Sanctity of life. What a stupid argument, contrary to God's wisdom and ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimiel View Post
    From the article entitled, "Eternal Suffering or Eternal Destruction," by Stanley J. Grenz

    Click here for original article.

    Problems with the Annihilationist Position


    Whatever its appeal, the annihilationist position contains substantive problems. One is the biblical assertions that the wicked will suffer an “eternal” fate. Annihilationists argue that the word eternal refers to the permanence of the results of judgment and not to the duration of the act of punishment.

    Many Scripture passages, however, say more than this. Biblical writers use the word eternal to refer not only to the punishment of the lost but also to the bliss of the righteous (Matthew 25:46), suggesting a parallel that goes beyond the permanence of the pronounced judgment. The unending joy of the redeemed stands in contrast to the unending torment of the reprobate. Also, several New Testament texts indicate that the lost will suffer varying degrees of punishment. Jesus declared that those who have received greater opportunities for belief will suffer more severe condemnation (Matthew 10:15; 11:20-24; Luke 12:47, 48).

    While many annihilationists believe in different degrees of torment before extinction, they anticipate only one ultimate destiny for all the wicked, an undifferentiated nonexistence. But can a righteous Judge pronounce the same sentence of destiny upon the most despicable villain of human history as upon the seemingly moral pagan? Also, doesn’t passing out of existence trivialize the seriousness of the choices we make in life and the importance of our response to God’s loving offer of community?


    Here is another good article on ECT: http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell4.html
    Have you read Mat.25:46 in Kione Greek?

    I bet you have not.

    LA
    My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

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    If you have to resort to translation of words and change their meaning, it simply means you don't accept Christian orthodoxy. Besides, there's far more than just one verse which proves that ECT is the fate of the wicked.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Sanctity of life. What a stupid argument, contrary to God's wisdom and ways.
    No, if your doctrine is really what you believe then the risk for your child being saved or not, isn't worth taking that chance.

    Its your doctrine godrulz so don't huff and puff when someone points outs how illogical it is.

    To speak of the Sanctity of life and then teach the absurd concept called hell, is a double minded oxymoronic position.
    Last edited by Zeke; February 22nd, 2013 at 09:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    Have you read Mat.25:46 in Kione Greek?

    I bet you have not.

    LA
    I'm familiar with Koine Greek, Kione sounds cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    No, if your doctrine is really what you believe then the risk for your child being saved or not, isn't worth taking that chance. Its your doctrine godrulz so don't huff and puff when someone points outs how illogical it is. To speak of the Sanctity of life and then teach the absurd concept called hell, is a double minded oxymoronic position.
    God doesn't ask that we edit His Word or think what we want with no regard for what He says is Truth. He wants us to take Him at His Word, which is the only reason He gives us His Word and not His appearance. Were we able to always see Him as angels do, we'd be judged the first time we sin. Since we walk in darkness, we have to cling to what Light we do have (His Word and His Body) and obey Him, not our own 'image' of who and what He might be according to our thoughts: which is only an idol.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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    Lightbulb Still problems......

    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Spiritual death alienates the sinner from a holy God (Eph. 2 read it yourself).
    But the nature of this 'spiritual death' is unclear. If it means an eternal seperation from 'God' or a punishment or result of sin that effects an 'eternal conscious torment'...this is problematic as we've covered previously. Consequences for sin are produced as one sins, and 'proportionate' to that sin, affecting its results...per the law of karma (what one sows, that also he reaps).....measure for measure. The law works out perfectly/fairly...while souls as long as they are able and capable...can repent and come back into union with God and his laws, expiating their sins, making reparation, abiding in the higher law of love. You'd have to prove that a soul CANNOT REPENT...and is somehow 'stuck' in a sinful state for all eternity. Furthermore, as shared earlier,...LOVE would never condemn a soul to an eternity of punishment to no end. Such a 'belief' is insane.

    Physical depravity/death was a consequence of Adam's sin (Gen. 3; Rom. 5). It affects the whole race and is a consequence of Adam's original sin in the Garden. This should not be confused with moral depravity which is individual, personal, volitional.

    Death affects babies, sinless Jesus, redeemed saints, godless unbelievers. Moral depravity does not affect babies, sinless Jesus. Only those who sin with mental/moral capacity are sinners. A baby does not die because he sins, but because Adam sinned and maybe because of a deadly infection, run over by a car, etc. (not moral).
    Beyond the theological assumptions however, it could be that physical death is part of the natural process of life here in this realm of conditional existence. Souls are born, die and are reborn according to the laws of Nature, - they continue on in the spirit-world, or may re-embody on physical worlds (resurrection or reincarnation) to further their learning. With this Spiritualist view, the journey of souls continues on naturally while much of the traditional-orthodox theology complicates things. ECT is just an old archaic assumption, while the law of karma, and principles of divine justice, mercy, love and wisdom....govern and perfectly mediates the salvation of all souls (or their termination, if such is possible and lawful).

    As long as souls are conscious and free to any degree...they can make their existence a 'heaven' or a 'hell' as much as its in their power to experience such conditions of existence, by the power of choice. And as Love's eternal will is for the salvation, happiness and liberation of its beloved....Love will always be availing itself towards any soul that has turned from it, wooing that soul back itself, for such is Love's nature. The only way this would be arrested, is if a soul has reached a 'point of no return' (assuming that such a state could be held for all eternity 'consciously') or if its embrace of iniquity has effected a final and permenant death of existence (termination of personality). - in this case 'God' would appear to be powerless in resurrecting such souls. - in the latter case if a soul dies an eternal death,...there is no ECT or the problem of how souls could consciously choose eternal punishment upon themselves. - a soul that is dis-integrated cannot suffer for all eternity.



    pj

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