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Thread: Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

  1. #7456
    STAND UP Tambora's Avatar
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    I don't think it always has to be a case of a person peacefully rejecting Him and calmly walking away.
    And I see nothing unloving or unjust for the Master of the universe to say "My way or the highway", or, "My house, My rules."
    And if you don't like it, I'm not sure why you would think that GOD cannot kick you out the door and slam it shut after you, and be perfectly just in doing so.

    God Bless America

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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Do you seriously think people are "choosing" something like eternal torment if they don't find faith in one short life? Does it make it easier for you to justify the fate of others by determining that it's their "choice"?
    It's a matter of rejecting God.

    The repercussions of man's choices are evident. Even unbelievers understand the principle of reaping what you sow. Some call it Karma. You gotta pay the piper. Yep, life is short, which is why we preach the Gospel.

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  5. #7458
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    I don't think it always has to be a case of a person peacefully rejecting Him and calmly walking away.
    And I see nothing unloving or unjust for the Master of the universe to say "My way or the highway", or, "My house, My rules."
    And if you don't like it, I'm not sure why you would think that GOD cannot kick you out the door and slam it shut after you, and be perfectly just in doing so.
    Then equate this with a loving parent who has an unruly child. They'd be well within their rights when the child reaches such an age to tell them to abide by the house rules or find somewhere else to live. If the child continued to disrespect the rules then it wouldn't necessarily be unloving for the parent to enforce this, although that wouldn't mean just throwing them onto the streets. A loving parent, however, wouldn't shut the door permanently on that child and would still wish for their well being. Look at the tale of the prodigal son. He was contrite when he returned but the dad was overjoyed to see him returning from a distance, before he'd even had a chance to say anything.

    There's also the counter side. If you're bringing life into the world then you, as a parent, have a duty of care to that child and a responsibility to bring it up properly, supply it with all it's needs and show it love, even through discipline. A loving parent certainly wouldn't abandon their child or close the door permanently so why would a God who is described as love do the same? Would it irk you if it was only believers who God allowed in?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


  6. #7459
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    It's a matter of rejecting God.

    The repercussions of man's choices are evident. Even unbelievers understand the principle of reaping what you sow. Some call it Karma. You gotta pay the piper. Yep, life is short, which is why we preach the Gospel.
    And how would you define that exactly? Simply a matter of not having faith, or the 'right' sort of faith?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    And they may well be right. All things are possible with God.

    A donkey spoke, as I recall. A sea parted. Manna rained down from heaven. Yep, they may well be right.
    So it's not quite that straightforward then is it? There's those who insist that it's word for word literal verbatim, others who find allegory at least in parts and others who regard it as an allegorical account. I think there's pretty obviously a lot of allegory in Genesis.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    A loving parent certainly wouldn't abandon their child or close the door permanently
    I can think of several reasons to keep one of your children away from the rest of your family.
    If one of your sons brutally rapes and murders your wife (his mother) and starts killing your other children, then yes you should boot him and lock him out.
    It would not be very loving and just to the father's other family members to let such a cancer remain.

    God Bless America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    And how would you define that exactly? Simply a matter of not having faith, or the 'right' sort of faith?
    It would fall to the right sort of faith.
    You can have faith that GOD does not exist, but that sort of faith will not save.

    God Bless America

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    I can think of several reasons to keep one of your children away from the rest of your family.
    If one of your sons brutally rapes and murders your wife (his mother) and starts killing your other children, then yes you should boot him and lock him out.
    It would not be very loving and just to the father's other family members to let such a cancer remain.
    In extreme circumstances then yes, although that really is going to the extreme and hardly really relevant to the point. Short of having a murdering psychopath running amok in your family would you turn your back on any of your children? Just to preempt what I think might have been another point going on here (If I'm mistaken my apologies) but is this also to do with how 'paradise' might be corrupted if 'unsaved' people are also allowed in? Do you think the average agnostic, atheist, those of other beliefs like freelight on here bear Christians ill will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    It would fall to the right sort of faith.
    You can have faith that GOD does not exist, but that sort of faith will not save.
    If it is actually a God of love then do you not think the fallibility of His creations is taken into account and an eternity of torment runs the absolute contrary to love? Thomas doubted and required proof, was he condemned for it?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    In extreme circumstances then yes,
    If there is a 'yes' to any of it (and we both admit there is), then the notion that a loving and just father must always keep and support all his children, no matter what, is moot.
    We don't expect that of any father, nor should we.

    God Bless America

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    If there is a 'yes' to any of it (and we both admit there is), then the notion that a loving and just father must always keep and support all his children, no matter what, is moot.
    We don't expect that of any father, nor should we.
    Nor do I but if your argument rests on extremes then it's really not that much of one. Short of the very high unlikelihood that one of your progeny is a murdering, raping psychopath then would you permanently turn your back on any of your children?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Over 5000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    And how would you define that exactly? Simply a matter of not having faith, or the 'right' sort of faith?
    Precisely the right sort of faith, faith in the "crowning" and "central" truth of the one Christian faith (Eph4:5KJV), that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen (Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV ; cf. Ro10:9KJV 1Co15:14KJV).
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Precisely the right sort of faith, faith in the "crowning" and "central" truth of the one Christian faith (Eph4:5KJV), that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen (Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV ; cf. Ro10:9KJV 1Co15:14KJV).
    So, anyone who's agnostic and probably in fact, most people aren't going to have that particular belief. Did Jesus come into the world to 'save' present and future 'believers' only?
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Does everyone have the ability to look up at the night sky or even just the world around them?

    The universe declares the glory of God whether a person is paying attention or not.
    No, some people are born blind, in some cases blind and deaf. Others suffer from conditions that severely impact on their senses, in some cases ones that stunt their emotional and social awareness too. You really should get a better argument here.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Over 5000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    So, anyone who's agnostic and probably in fact, most people aren't going to have that particular belief.
    Looks like about 5 out of 7 of us don't believe that He is risen, that's true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Did Jesus come into the world to 'save' present and future 'believers' only?
    He is risen. You go from there. It begins there. All questions are answered from there; all of them. But it begins there, and can't begin anywhere else, not even at "God exists." Not even at that. The Lord Jesus Christ is risen.
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
    Ricky: "You also know how to be stupid."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Looks like about 5 out of 7 of us don't believe that He is risen, that's true.
    He is risen. You go from there. It begins there. All questions are answered from there; all of them. But it begins there, and can't begin anywhere else, not even at "God exists." Not even at that. The Lord Jesus Christ is risen.
    Jesus is truly a fisher of men.

    I'm thinking that must be the one that "caught you". It's a good one, and, of course, extremely important. Crucial even. But, it can actually begin somewhere else....for someone else. The one that "caught me" was John 1:1. When that one hit my heart, I was forever owned.

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