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Thread: Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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    The torch example applies to material things. The soul is in the spiritual realm thus it doesn't abide by the laws of physical nature. Key words are in revelation 20:10 "for ever and ever".

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    The English word 'eternal' does not connote a true meaning to the Greek word 'aion' which indicates an 'age', dispensation or indefinite period of time, therefore the English translation of 'eternal' or 'everlasting' imposing the idea of 'never ending' does not always pertain when using 'aion' or its adjectival forms unless qualified.

    See 'Stop the insanity' (all pertinent links for your own research)

    Also:


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4
    Try "everlasting" and see what you come up with. If that does work maybe try "Forever and forever".
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    When Jesus spoke a parable, the Bible called it a parable. When Jesus spoke of Noah, Jonah, Elijah, Lot, the rich man in hell, and others, He was speaking of real people. In Mark 9 He warned people to take the necessary precautions so as to not end up in "hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
    No, you are mistaken. Jesus did not preface every parable with "this is a parable." There's two examples on preceding place in Luke 16 if you had a mind to read context, such as, Luke 16:1 "There was a certain rich man, which had a steward..." and Luke 15: 11 "A certain man had two sons..."

    Luke 15:10-12 KJV
    (10) Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
    (11) And he said, A certain man had two sons:
    (12) And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.


    First question: Are you trying to tell me that "The Parable of the Prodigal Son" is not a Parable?"


    Isaiah 66:22-24 KJV
    (22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    (23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
    (24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


    Second question: Did you miss that Mark 9 is quotation from Isaiah 66, and refers to physical destruction of corpses, not torment of living souls? Carcasses are dead people, not living and aware folk.
    Last edited by Rosenritter; August 7th, 2016 at 03:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    What did I miss? Better yet, what is it you don't want to understand about separation from God being a death sentence unto itself? Would you want to live where God isn't? I wouldn't. Yet, it is the case for untold millions of men and women who are eternally separated from. Hell was made for rge devil and his angels. It wasn't ever intended for unrighteous man. That said, it is the only place he can go when physically dead just as Heaven the only place a righteous man go can go upon his physical death. What am I speaking of except his soul? Question: Will the angels cast into hell with the devil ever die? How come?
    You missed that souls die, that they can be destroyed by God, they can even be slain with the sword, it is a synonym for life. (Job 33:18, Psalm 22:20). The bible never says the soul is immortal or cannot die or cannot be destroyed, it says the complete opposite.

    You missed that there are people who would much rather live separated from God.

    And to answer your question, will the angels that are cast into hell with the devil ever die? If you mean "wicked angels" thus "devils" then Justin Martyr certainly thought so. See his Second Apology to the Greeks, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0127.htm

    "Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature."

    How come, you ask? Because it's prophesied and spelled out for us already in scripture. See Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. We know the ultimate end of that covering cherub that was in Eden, and regardless of the path taken through that fire, the end result is death and destruction, ashes and nothingness of being.

    Ezekiel 28:14-19 KJV
    (14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    (15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
    (16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    (17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    (18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
    (19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

    Why mention hell at all, you ask? It's the opposite of life. Jesus offered life eternal, the opposite is destruction in hell. Life vs. death. When God destroys the body and soul permanently, it is destroyed in hell. The dead are "in hell" because that's simply what the word means. As for the rest, you really need to prove that "the soul cannot die" before you continue on that path of reasoning. Scripture says the soul does die.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    No. I believe the rich man was and is still in hell, just like Jesus said.
    Is it just coincidence that he calls Abraham "father" and has five brothers, and has the law and the prophets, wears purple and fine linen? Are you inclined to believe that Jesus mentioned all these things without meaning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrysostom View Post
    I would expect translators to use a dictionary for the meaning of words
    When conversational English uses words that aren't in the bible to begin with that isn't exactly a solution. "Effective calling" for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    We were created in the image of God. God has a soul. He is the maker of souls. We are souls. God made souls like His and put them in human flesh. For this reason alone, souls are immortal and that upon the death of the "body" the soul merely departs to reside somewhere else until reunited with its resurrected body, exampled here by God for our understanding:

    "And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself." 1 Samuel 28:12-14 (KJV)
    Two thoughts. First of all, God did not make souls and put them in human flesh. It says that he made human flesh and breathed in spirit, and that resulting combination formed a human soul. See Genesis 2:7, man is not a creature that can consist of a soul without a body.

    Genesis 2:7 KJV
    (7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


    Second of all, were you aware that of their differing opinions, King James, John Calvin, and Martin Luther all were able to agree that the "ghost of Samuel" (that you reference, 1 Samuel 28:12) was a demonic apparition? They each had their separate reasons. King James said that the dead were plainly dead until the resurrection and that devils were known to lie and appear as angels of light, John Calvin said it was inconceivable that God would allow a witch to disturb the saints. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_of_Endor for Martin Luther and Calvin, read The Daemonologie for the reasoning of King James http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/kjd/

    Question for you: when someone attempts to use necromancy to summon spirits of the departed, and you get something that comes back and claims to be it, for what reason would you assume this apparition to be telling the truth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Assuming your belief in the sovereignty of God, as a Calvinist would have it be understood: If a soul could be destroyed [made to no longer exist] where, for a surety, would mans hope for eternal life lie?
    What would be the point of offering eternal life if we were already immortal? Why would Jesus say that without it we would perish if we would really continue on and on?

    John 3:16 KJV
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Only insofar as your soul cannot die. However, if Hell cannot have its effect upon your neither can heaven that you would live forever. The immortal soul is immortal. God cannot kill it anymore than a King can cancel His own decree. Souls, apart from the rest of creation, are created in His image and likeness in an absolute non-destruct fashion made so to guarntee their eternal existence.

    Not according to me. However, If you were to truly believe that then heaven be out of the question as well. It would be meanless. Why get saved?

    Question for you: How come angels can't die? . . . and Satan?
    Didn't we already cover this, proving that kings (other than the kings of the Medes and Persians) CAN and HAVE cancelled their own decrees, including God?

    And second, the angels can be destroyed, specifically Satan. It is written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    When conversational English uses words that aren't in the bible to begin with that isn't exactly a solution. "Effective calling" for example.
    we are talking about translators -
    how do you translate without a dictionary?
    a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

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    Understanding 'aion' is KEY.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Try "everlasting" and see what you come up with. If that does work maybe try "Forever and forever".
    You apparently did not read my post or the resource articles/view the videos which show that -

    THE GREEK WORD

    AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS,

    TRANSLATED

    Everlasting -- Eternal

    IN THE

    HOLY BIBLE,

    ARE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION
    .

    I challenge you to read the above article with includes ample evidence to show 'aionios' does not mean 'never ending' or 'everlasting' but pertains to an 'age'. Understand the original language of the scriptures, not English distortions. Besides grammatical evidence, the heinous doctrine of ECT can be thoroughly rejected on moral/ethical grounds alone. From a variety of contexts, this doctrine fails in its logic.

    While we've shown so far much biblical proof for 'conditional immortality', per Tim's request....I also have Universalist leanings since I come from an eclectic perspective and more liberally philosophical approach, including other religious traditions and schools of thought. I go by what my own conscience, reason, intelligence and spiritual guidance allows, and remain open to progressive revelation, as any student of truth is apt to do.

    https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=72eJeryrQeI

    Please also note that in the context of conditional immortality, there is perfect justice according to universal law and opportunity, in the individual sovereignty of each soul to choose and determine their own destiny.


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    Thumbs up Part 2 of 2 What Does the Bible Say About Hell? / Do People Really Burn Forever


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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    You apparently did not read my post or the resource articles/view the videos which show that -

    THE GREEK WORD

    AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS,

    TRANSLATED

    Everlasting -- Eternal

    IN THE

    HOLY BIBLE,

    ARE SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION
    .

    I challenge you to read the above article with includes ample evidence to show 'aionios' does not mean 'never ending' or 'everlasting' but pertains to an 'age'. Understand the original language of the scriptures, not English distortions. Besides grammatical evidence, the heinous doctrine of ECT can be thoroughly rejected on moral/ethical grounds alone. From a variety of contexts, this doctrine fails in its logic.

    While we've shown so far much biblical proof for 'conditional immortality', per Tim's request....I also have Universalist leanings since I come from an eclectic perspective and more liberally philosophical approach, including other religious traditions and schools of thought. I go by what my own conscience, reason, intelligence and spiritual guidance allows, and remain open to progressive revelation, as any student of truth is apt to do.

    https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=72eJeryrQeI

    Please also note that in the context of conditional immortality, there is perfect justice according to universal law and opportunity, in the individual sovereignty of each soul to choose and determine their own destiny.

    Get a new resource book, one that is not subjective in its opinion. Try an ordinary dictionary for the meaning of "unquenchable".
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosenritter View Post
    No, you are mistaken. Jesus did not preface every parable with "this is a parable." There's two examples on preceding place in Luke 16 if you had a mind to read context, such as, Luke 16:1 "There was a certain rich man, which had a steward..." and Luke 15: 11 "A certain man had two sons..."

    Luke 15:10-12 KJV
    (10) Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
    (11) And he said, A certain man had two sons:
    (12) And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.


    First question: Are you trying to tell me that "The Parable of the Prodigal Son" is not a Parable?"
    I do not believe the Bible says the story of the prodigal son is a parable, which leaves open the possibility that it was a fact of history. It may have been a parable, but I will not say every or any story Jesus tells is just a parable and not based on real people unless the Bible specifically says the story is a parable.

    Isaiah 66:22-24 KJV
    (22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    (23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
    (24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
    Second question: Did you miss that Mark 9 is quotation from Isaiah 66, and refers to physical destruction of corpses, not torment of living souls? Carcasses are dead people, not living and aware folk.
    If we find references to fiery burning of flesh in both the OT and the NT and if some of the wording matches should we feel confident the references are limited to the one event only? No, hell is mentioned many times in many contexts which cannot all be referring to the months-long cleanup after the Battle of Armageddon. Jesus says the fires of hell will not be quenched and the worms will not die. Never. The reference in Isiah 66 does not refer to an everlasting event. It probably refers to the 7 month burial period also referenced in Jer. 7:32 and Ezekiel 39:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    Neither of us are under any obligation to agree with each other, but we are all under an obligation to agree with God. I believe hell is real for many reasons based upon several scriptures and I don't find your arguments for your position persuasive.
    Seems to me that 'agreeing with God' is pat for 'agreeing with interpreted doctrine' most of the time. Frankly, I don't have that much time for someone who thinks it's 'worthwhile' to have kids when they believe that some of them may well end up in their particular doctrinal version of "hell" as long as others make it to "Heaven".

    Have a nice day.


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