ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

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Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
1 Thes 4:13-5:6 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Chapter 5 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

The rapture is before the tribulation because nothing in our dispensation of the mystery is prophesied. Ephesians 3:8,9 show us that: “To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.”

The mystery is a secret hid in God until He revealed it to Paul. Because it is a mystery, nothing that has to do with this dispensation of the mystery was prophesied before Paul was saved. After the rapture, God will start His prophetic program with Israel again.

From this, we can see that the tribulation will come after the rapture and the prophesied first resurrection will come after the tribulation.

Until Christ and the Rapture,
Bob Hill
 

elected4ever

New member
Bob Hill said:
1 Thes 4:13-5:6 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And .18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Chapter 5 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

The rapture is before the tribulation because nothing in our dispensation of the mystery is prophesied. Ephesians 3:8,9 show us that: “To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.”

The mystery is a secret hid in God until He revealed it to Paul. Because it is a mystery, nothing that has to do with this dispensation of the mystery was prophesied before Paul was saved. After the rapture, God will start His prophetic program with Israel again.

From this, we can see that the tribulation will come after the rapture and the prophesied first resurrection will come after the tribulation.

Until Christ and the Rapture,
Bob Hill
Bob, There is nothing in the scripture you just quoted that indicates the so called pretribulational rapture. "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." This is the resurrection of the saints. This is a mystery to the world , yes. It is a mystery to the world that lies in unbelief but it is no mystery to us. It was a mystery but now has been reveled to us who have believed. They are indeed words of comfort to us because they speak to our glorious hope, the resurrection of the body. "the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord." What a precious hope and sure knowledge of our future.

"For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober." "Every citizen of the world has the right to live in peace and safety so we will fight this war on terror and we will win no matter how long it takes." George H.W. Bush, President of the United States. It is not that peace and safety will exist in the whole world but that man thinks that peace and safety is the right of man and can be secured by man. We are fighting in the meddle east today for the purpose of peace and safety. It is not the fact that the war is being fought but where it is being fought. More on that latter. and probably should be on a different tread, but to serfice it to say that we should know better. The coming of the Lord is not a mystery to us. Jesus said, "John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto Myself that where I am there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know." The where and the how are no mystery but the time of the event is unknown to us. But that is no mystery ether because of the surity of the event.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 ¶Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
patman said:
Thanks Muz.

I think I am going to agree in part and in part conclude that Adam and Eve would have live by the "law" of love, as we all would have had no one sinned.

Someone would have sinned tho, sooner or later, for them they get the law, and the grace that comes from Christ's death. It all seems to fit the bigger picture, I think..

I guess I'm going to stick with the idea that mankind was created to be good, and that with the teaching of God, pre-fall humans would have learned to leave it be.

The "bigger picture" you speak of only consists of how things worked out, and doesn't consider how things were supposed to be, and how things will ultimately end.

Muz
 

seekinganswers

New member
I love it when people develop an entire theology by "reading between the lines" of the Greek text. We can ignore how Paul's language would work in a first century Roman context and try to embrace a nice and fluffy theology right at home in the Modern World. Despite the fact that Paul's language in I Thess. 5 relates eschatology to the militaristic image of an emperor returning from battle and his people coming out to welcome him back into the city (i.e. the being "caught up" language), we prefer to come up with our own understanding of the text, which turns the "rapture" into an abondonment of the Creation by God and his people (an ideal which is horrendous for any but the heretics of the church).

Peace,
Michael
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
I think you may have posted in the wrong thread. This is the Open Theism thread, not rapture. :chuckle:


Nevermind, I see that the rapture was being talked about. :idunno: :noid:
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Eschatological chronology is based on more than one passage. Mt. 24; 25 is mostly about Tribulation before the visible Second Coming of Christ. I Thess. 4 is about the preceding rapture of the saints (Christ comes for the Church before He comes back with the Church).
 

elected4ever

New member
godrulz said:
Eschatological chronology is based on more than one passage. Mt. 24; 25 is mostly about Tribulation before the visible Second Coming of Christ. I Thess. 4 is about the preceding rapture of the saints (Christ comes for the Church before He comes back with the Church).
There is no rapture so Jesus was addressing the same issue as Paul.
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
The principal problem for you guys who do not believe in a pretribulation rapture is your unawareness of the dispensation that was given to the Apostle Paul by God, called the Dispensation of the Mystery.

The rapture is before the tribulation because nothing in this Dispensation of the Mystery was prophesied before it was given to the Apostle Paul by revelation. Ephesians 3:8,9 show us that: To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery, which has been hidden from ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

These unsearchable riches of Christ were never known before the ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave them to Paul. That is what we call the nature of the mystery.

After the rapture, the tribulation will come next. Israel, not the Body of Christ, was identified as the people of the tribulation by Daniel (Dan 9:24; 10:14; 12:1).

Our Lord Jesus Christ mentioned Daniel’s abomination of desolation (Dan 9:27; 11:31) in the future tribulation’s setting (Mat 24:15-21).

One purpose of the tribulation will be to purify Israel for her kingdom reign (Dan 9:24; Zec 13:9).

That’s why Jeremiah 30:7 says the tribulation is precisely called a time of tribulation for Jacob.

Since the mystery has nothing to do with Israel, the tribulation, which is specifically designated for Israel, is irrelevant to the church which is His body, the Body of Christ.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Because the Body of Christ was a mystery that applies only to us believers of this dispensation, the Rapture is never referred to in prophecy prior to Paul’s conversion. Therefore, because of the mystery, we must come to the following conclusions.

Any prophecy about the tribulation or the people in the tribulation could not refer to the Body of Christ, those of us who have put our trust in Christ since God gave the Mystery truth to the Apostle Paul.

Also, any prophecy about the end times which are made about things after the rapture, could not apply to the body of Christ which will be gone before the tribulation begins.

Further, any prophecy about those who will go through the tribulation, and will be under the wrath of God, could not apply to the body of Christ.

Because of these eschatological problems the rapture, since it only applies to the body of Christ, has to take place before the time of Jacob’s trouble, the tribulation, which follows the rapture for the next seven years.

In Christ, looking for the Rapture,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
We, in the Body of Christ, will be raptured before the things that were predicted before the Dispensation of the Mystery started.

The great and awesome day of the Lord will follow the tribulation. We will have no part in that day because we will have been raptured already.
Acts 2:20 “The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.”

Mat 24:29,30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then, after that, the judgment of the nations will take place: Mat 25:31,32 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Then, the millennial reign of Christ begins after that judgment: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Then Satan is loosed after the thousand year reign of Christ: Rev 20:7-9 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Then the great white throne judgment will take place: Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Then the new heavens and earth will be established. And they reign forever. Rev 21:1,3,27; 22:5 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. . . . 3 Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. . . . 27 only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. 22:5 And they shall reign forever and ever.

In Christ, in awe of all His works,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Around AD 373, Ephraem the Syrian wrote about the rapture.

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (Ephraem the Syrian or Pseudo-Ephraem, On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World, Around A.D. 373. Grant R. Jeffrey in When the Trumpet Sounds, Ed. Thomas Ice & Timothy Demy, Eugene, Harvest House Pub., p. 108.)

Do a search on line. You’ll be amazed at the evidence.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Another passage about the rapture occurs in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. Behold, I tell you a mystery: This was a mystery that was never revealed until God revealed in to Paul.

51 continued. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

1 Co 15:52 in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, in the last trump. For a trumpet will sound.

While this trumpet is sounding, actually during the last note (trump), the dead will be raised and we who remain until the coming of the Lord will be changed.

For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

This whole event is called a mystery, something hid in God, a secret.

The secret in 1 Co 15:51,52 is not the concept that some will not see death, for our Lord expressed this idea clearly in John 11:25-26: “He who believes in Me will live even if he dies, but he who lives and believes in Me will never die.”

The secret is the event itself.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Now, the second coming, including the gathering of the elect, is well prophesied in Matthew 24: 29-31: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This event was no mystery to Paul. Let us recall here the precise definition of “mystery”. A mystery is not an ambiguous or mystical revelation but an unrevealed truth. The LXX of Daniel 2:19 employs mystery to render the Persian (Aramaic) raz, “secret”, in reference to Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. Daniel did not receive from Nebuchadnezzar a vague or shadowy revelation of the dream. Rather, until the God of heaven revealed the secret to His prophet, the content of the dream was completely concealed to him.

Likewise, the secret of the rapture was not the subject of ambiguous or shadowy revelation before Paul, but was concealed in God.

This mystery was revealed to Paul early in his ministry, and Paul discusses the rapture in his earliest epistles, Galatians and Thessalonians.

Further, the mystery of Ephesians is also discussed in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Since the rapture is a mystery, the disclosure of the church’s hope prior to the revelation of the secret church through Paul is also a mystery. It had not ever been revealed before.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
God did not form the body of Christ by bringing believing Gentiles into the covenant blessings of His people, Israel.

God did not bring Gentiles into equality with Jews, but equalized the two groups by concluding Israel in the same state of unbelief as the Gentiles because of her disobedience.

The following Scripture from Romans 9:31-10:3; 11:32, establishes this: But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Therefore, the church, the Body of Christ, was an entirely new creation. Eph 2:11-22 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh - who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands – 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Since the church was formed only after Israel was removed from her position of privilege, the body of Christ cannot be the result of including the Gentile believers in Israel’s blessings. The body of Christ is not an extension of Israel’s privileged status to the Gentiles.

Likewise, the ministry of Paul, to whom the truth of the body of Christ was entrusted, was not an extension of the Circumcision Apostles’ commission. Paul’s gospel of grace and his apostleship to the Gentiles represented a new course of divine action (Gal 1:1, 11-12; 2:7-9).

Therefore, there was a tribulation specifically applied to Israel.

This tribulation has nothing to do with the church which is His body.

Instead, we have a new dispensation, The Dispensation of Grace!

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Bob Hill said:
The principal problem for you guys who do not believe in a pretribulation rapture is your unawareness of the dispensation that was given to the Apostle Paul by God, called the Dispensation of the Mystery.

The rapture is before the tribulation because nothing in this Dispensation of the Mystery was prophesied before it was given to the Apostle Paul by revelation. Ephesians 3:8,9 show us that: To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery, which has been hidden from ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

These unsearchable riches of Christ were never known before the ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave them to Paul. That is what we call the nature of the mystery.

After the rapture, the tribulation will come next. Israel, not the Body of Christ, was identified as the people of the tribulation by Daniel (Dan 9:24; 10:14; 12:1).

Our Lord Jesus Christ mentioned Daniel’s abomination of desolation (Dan 9:27; 11:31) in the future tribulation’s setting (Mat 24:15-21).

One purpose of the tribulation will be to purify Israel for her kingdom reign (Dan 9:24; Zec 13:9).

That’s why Jeremiah 30:7 says the tribulation is precisely called a time of tribulation for Jacob.

Since the mystery has nothing to do with Israel, the tribulation, which is specifically designated for Israel, is irrelevant to the church which is His body, the Body of Christ.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Just a note to readers: Not all Open View Theists are Mid-Acts dispies.

Muz
 

elected4ever

New member
I supposed that it depends on what you call the mystery. You call it the rapture. I call it the Second Coming of the Lord. The Old Testament did not envision the Second coming but that God would send a ruler to deliver Israel. A warrior King, not a Sacrificial Lamb. The Second coming was never envisioned. The dispensation (administration) of the Mystery (Second Coming) was given to Paul but that knowledge was also given the Apostles . Paul was not the only recipient of the mystery.

I do not think that it unreasonable that those who remain at the Second Coming should be translated into the the glorious body of redemption at the second coming. Those who have gone on before us will not be prevented from receiving their new bodies also. Christ will bring them with Him when he returns. No where do you find a place where it says that Jesus and the saints ever return to heaven but the His kingdom will be established on earth.
 
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Philetus

New member
Just a note to readers: Not all Open View Theists are Mid-Acts dispies.

Muz

Nor do they all believe in a literal 'millennial reign' or ‘rapture’.

I think I finally found a point where godrulz and I may differ ---- the goal of all theology. :yawn:
I guess this means I don't get a cookie.

Jesus is coming again ... be ready.

REV. 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

You guys sure can complicate things.
 

Philetus

New member
In case no one noticed, we’re ‘tribulating’ now and it looks like it is likely to get a lot worse before Jesus returns.
 
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