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Thread: Is MAD doctrine correct?

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    PS to the above. This distinction between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians could also have been for a time and a season. That time and season was the proclaimation of the gospel throughout the world....and a transistioning away from the law.

    Think about it. Christ died for all sins for all time; one time. Since this is true; what need would there be for a Jewish Temple....and daily sacrifices? The blood of bulls and goats no longer being necessary.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Paul's ministry and revelations given to him by God came later and established this new dispensation of grace by emphasizing that all people are one in Christ.

    1 Corinthians 12:13
    Galatians 3:28
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Paul's ministry and revelations given to him by God came later....
    This is one of our main points. You won't find the gospel, that Jesus died for your sins preached in the 4 gospels. You will find instruction to Israel to keep the law, and endure to the end to be saved.

    Paul said he was the first and a pattern for the Body of Christ. He straight up said it. He is the prototype. He did not endure to the end. In fact, he persecuted the Jerusalem church and its followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. He was an enemy reconciled to God.

    The same as us when we first believe his gospel. We don't deserve salvation.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    In my mind, there is one passage of scripture that so clearly establishes dispensationalism as proper; it's hard to see why it wasn't understood for so long. To me, it's a slam dunk proving that God does operate through dispensations, by way of times and seasons...and that these extend through covenants.

    Ephesians Chapter 2

    "Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father
    ."

    He made one new man from the two!
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    This is one of our main points. You won't find the gospel, that Jesus died for your sins preached in the 4 gospels. You will find instruction to Israel to keep the law, and endure to the end to be saved.
    This statement is not really true, or accurate, and it's kind of irrelevant Nick. Part of it is accurate...but there's a problem with trying to look at redemption just by the words recorded in the gospels, as there would be in trying to look at it only by the words of the prophets, the law and the Psalms.

    It would be like taking a picture....that picture being redemption... and then zooming in on it until all you see is image in the middle, with the rest of the image blurred around the outsides.

    The four gospels speak to Christ's life and ministry here on this earth. Jesus spoke prophetically about the gospel, the same as Isaiah and David did...because he hadn't died yet.

    Isaiah prophecied the coming of the Lord, Jesus....the redeemer. Isaiah 9:6

    He spoke to Christ's sufferings and the work of redemption. Isaiah 53:5

    That his sacrifice would be for all people; Jew and Gentile. Isaiah 49:6

    Jesus spoke of his sacrifice being for all people...prophetically...and the establishment of the New Covenant.

    John 10:16
    Matthew 26:28

    Jesus spoke that salvation would be by grace through faith in him, and this salvation by grace is recorded in the gospel of John.

    John 1:12
    John 3:14-15
    John 3:16
    John 3:17
    John 11:25
    John 5:39
    John 10:28
    John 17:3

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Paul said he was the first and a pattern for the Body of Christ. He straight up said it. He is the prototype. He did not endure to the end. In fact, he persecuted the Jerusalem church and its followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. He was an enemy reconciled to God. The same as us when we first believe his gospel.
    Paul wasn't the first person saved by believing the gospel. I don't know what you're talking about here. And Paul wasn't like us because he wasn't a Gentile. He was a Jew, and specifically a Pharisee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    We don't deserve salvation.
    No one does; that what grace means. It's unmerited favor. If someone could deserve salvation or earn it.....it wouldn't be by grace.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Over 500 post club Doormat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    1. Dispensational Theology distinguishes between Israel and the Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Rightly so.
    I disagree. You were grafted onto the Olive Tree, so what is the distinction? You've quoted Ephesians above where it states you are now a fellow citizen of Israel.

    Please explain what you think the Olive Tree is and how you were grafted in.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    I disagree. You were grafted onto the Olive Tree, so what is the distinction? You've quoted Ephesians above where it states you are now a fellow citizen of Israel.

    Please explain what you think the Olive Tree is and how you were grafted in.
    I'll be happy to talk about the Olive Tree Doormat, though I don't even see how it's that important - nor do I understand why people want to equate Israel with the Body of Christ. Paul said what he said for a reason.

    To me, understanding what it means to be in the Body of Christ is immensely more important than understanding parables about trees.

    In Ephesians chapter 1, the scriptures are emphasizing how important it is to be in the Body of Christ; and what blessings are associated with that.

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ..."

    God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in Christ. Two key points....

    1. Has blessed
    2. Every spiritual blessing

    Galatians 3

    "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham."

    "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    "

    In Romans chapter 11, Paul is speaking of wild olive trees, and cultivated trees....the end of the discussion is...

    "For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?"

    "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

    Paul is speaking of the salvation of Gentiles, but mainly emphasizing how God is not finished with Israel. When God makes a promise; you can bet your sweet whatever that he's going to keep it. So, his promise to Abraham, the children of Israel, and to David...are things that he has kept and will keep in the future.

    But....do you think that God's plan of salvation was only for Jews and we as Gentiles just happend to catch a lucky break?

    It wasn't and we didn't. God wants to save everyone.

    John 1:12
    John 3:16
    1 Timothy 2
    "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle..."

    TBC
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Now....to finish with trees and emphasize the distinction between the Body of Christ and the children of Israel.

    Psalm 1
    "Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; But his delight is in the law of the Lord, And in His law he meditates day and night.

    He shall be like a tree Planted by the rivers of water, That brings forth its fruit in its season, Whose leaf also shall not wither; And whatever he does shall prosper
    ."

    Trees can be symbolic of those who love and serve the Lord...no doubt.

    Now, let's distinguish between the Children of Israel (12 Tribes) and the Body of Christ.

    The 12 Tribes were God's chosen people; for a reason. From them, all of the earth would be blessed. The Messiah....Jesus Christ....Son of God...Savior of the World would come through them. God made them promises and kept them as a special people; because he keeps his promises, and to reveal Christ to the world.

    But they were not a faithful people. Time and time again, they rejected the Lord, abandoned his ways, killed the prophets, stoned those who were sent to them; and eventually rejected Jesus.

    John 1; Speaking of Jesus Christ

    "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

    Who were his own? The Jews were his own. And his own people rejected him. Well guess what....you can't be saved by rejecting Jesus, I don't care who you are.

    John 14:6
    Acts 4:12

    The 12 Tribes of Israel await their coming Messiah.

    The Body of Christ has received him. That is the difference.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    I'll be happy to talk about the Olive Tree Doormat, though I don't even see how it's that important ...
    I'll try and show you why it's important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    In Romans chapter 11, Paul is speaking of wild olive trees, and cultivated trees....the end of the discussion is...
    Paul is not making up these ideas. They come from the Old Testament scriptures. Do you know what Paul understood the Olive Tree was based on the scriptures? Judah (Israel).

    Jeremiah 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

    Are you grafted into that Olive Tree or was Paul mistaken?

    Exodus 4:22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,

    Hosea 1:11 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

    Matthew 2:15 where he [Christ] stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

    Israel is the body of Christ; compare Hosea 1:11 to Matthew 2:15 and just believe what it states. Christ is the king of Israel and you are a member of his body. It's simply not logically possible on any level that you and His body are not part of Israel.

    Perhaps you mistake ethnic Jews living in nation called "Israel" as the true Israel of prophecy, but it's not. In time Christ will deal with those who call themselves Jews but are not.

    Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    If you have been grafted onto the Olive Tree, as Paul claimed, then you have been grafted onto Israel, which is why Paul called the Ephesians fellow citizens of Israel.

    Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    Are you still an alien? If you still are then Paul's words are pointless because he is telling that you were once an alien but no longer are, hence you are a fellow citizen of Israel according to him.

    Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    In context and according to how "household of God" is defined throughout scripture, he means you are part of Israel. I hope that and the Olive Tree convinces you.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    So tell us what it is and why.
    The gospel relates to the person and work of Jesus Christ. There is only one cross, one Jesus. A gospel not based on His death/resurrection and grace/faith is a false gospel (see Romans; Galatians). Two true NT gospel theories (vs Israel/Church; OT/NT) is a non-starter without precedent apart from modern fads started by Bullinger, Stam, etc. It is a minority view for a reason (few actually see it in Scripture; we are talking essential gospel truth, so it is not something all believers should miss; regardless, it is moot since non-MAD follows Paul and would not accept a Jewish hybrid gospel anyway).

    The reason Paul went to Gentiles and others continued to reach Jews, etc. is a pragmatic missionary strategy repeated in all generations with numerous people groups. There is no reason to see multiple gospels/messages in all this vs a missionary strategy to take the gospel to all ethnos/people groups.

    This is not rocket science and I really don't understand why thinking people here fall for MAD.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Godrulz, your post #25 was pretty good....but it kind of danced around my question. In James' opening, he addresses the twelve tribes, scattered abroad. In chapter 2 he admonishes Christians to not hold the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ with partiality.

    So, what we see here is some confusing language. Of course it's possible that he was writing to Jewish Christians, and that does clear things up..and considering the times (ie. scattering and persecution) his admonitions make perfect sense.

    What is important to consider though, and this is a point of MAD doctrine, is whether or not Gentile and Jewish Christians are held to the same standard or ways of living.

    TBC
    Jewish, Gentile, African, Chinese, Arabic, Spanish, American, Canadian, French, etc. CHRISTIANS are held to the same standard and become Christians through the same Jesus/God/gospel.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    PS to the above. This distinction between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians could also have been for a time and a season. That time and season was the proclaimation of the gospel throughout the world....and a transistioning away from the law.

    Think about it. Christ died for all sins for all time; one time. Since this is true; what need would there be for a Jewish Temple....and daily sacrifices? The blood of bulls and goats no longer being necessary.
    The one finished work of Christ and the one gospel make it impossible for there to be two true post-cross gospels. MAD is based on a wrong paradigm and a few proof texts out of context.

    Apart from Luther, MAD, and some others, most do not have trouble reconciling Peter, James, John, Paul writings. There is nothing NT/Body/Church unfriendly in Acts ff. if we exegete it properly (a few things are for future, national Israel, but context dictates this).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

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    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Paul's ministry and revelations given to him by God came later and established this new dispensation of grace by emphasizing that all people are one in Christ.

    1 Corinthians 12:13
    Galatians 3:28
    The cross is the basis for Jew/Gentile becoming one in Christ. This reality predates Paul's unique ministry and calling. Paul was called and prepared in a unique way to expand the scope of the gospel, but this is NOT a reason to speculate about him getting another gospel than the early church had before his conversion. Most read Acts 15, etc. differently than MAD (so I am suggesting MAD is wrong in its interpretation of Scripture; wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    The one finished work of Christ and the one gospel make it impossible for there to be two true post-cross gospels. MAD is based on a wrong paradigm and a few proof texts out of context.

    Apart from Luther, MAD, and some others, most do not have trouble reconciling Peter, James, John, Paul writings. There is nothing NT/Body/Church unfriendly in Acts ff. if we exegete it properly (a few things are for future, national Israel, but context dictates this).
    The difference in the two Gospels is that the first from Peter to the Jews stresses repentance and baptism.

    Acts2:38
    KJV
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Paul stresses the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4
    KJV
    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    Here there are two different approaches to salvation; one given by Peter and one by Paul constituting two different gospels, one for the Jew, one for the Gentile.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Everyone's ministry pattern, including Paul's, was to the Jew first, but not exclusively. Just as you might reach your own city before going to reach Africans, so there was a concentric progression of the gospel from Jerusalem to the whole world to fulfill the Great Commission. The Church is still doing this. Paul had a unique ministry to expand the gospel beyond sectarian borders, and we have a unique ministry in our day and age. This does not mean there is more than one NT, post-cross gospel.

    The 12 did go beyond Jews, but were killed, got old, etc. The commission was not limited to the seed group, but to be carried out by millions of subsequent disciples that grew from the core. Likewise, the Holy Spirit continues the ministry of Jesus in a greater way than limited Christ on earth could. This does not mean the message of the Spirit is not Christ's (which is ultimately simple faith in His person and work, not words Jn. 6:28-29; Jn. 3:16 (grace/faith, not works).
    Congratulations on missing my point.

    Also: Galatians 2:9

    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Where is a verse that says , first to Israel , then to Gentiles ??

    If you say Matt 28:19 and 20 , Prove your premise , if you can ??

    dan p
    I'm going by the record. Acts 10 gives an idea that Peter was reticent to go to Gentiles so early on. And then there is Gal. 2:9


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