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Thread: Is MAD doctrine correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    As I am covenantal, I hold to neither view as a label, so I naturally would disagree with several aspects of the items in my post. But I am not posting the content to start some cage match, esp. given the rules for posting in this particular forum.

    The point of my post was to test my own understanding of MAD.

    The items I listed were gleaned from actual discussions on TOL about MAD and from what I could gather elsewhere. I previously tested this list here:

    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...90#post2713690

    And made some tweaks to the list following that discussion.

    I see that most of them are agreed to by MAD proponents, but some are in dispute. I guess there is some disagreement even with the MAD camp, not that I expected there not to be.

    What I am trying to do is gather a list of the MAD distinctives and then be able to craft something with three columns, adding MAD to the two columns in something like this table:

    http://www.faithbibleonline.net/Misc...ne/DispCov.htm

    So for those MAD supporters that are scratching their heads saying "so what?" to my list above, that is actually a good thing as I want to be as accurate as I can with this list.

    AMR
    Well, don't take what I say as MAD doctrine. I'm not MAD. I am studying dispensationalism now....and it's really helping me. I think it's right. It clears up the Bible quite a bit.....IMO.

    In any event.....I have studied the scriptures....long time.
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Well I am studying dispensationalism now....and it's really helping me. I think it's right. It clears up the Bible quite a bit.....IMO.
    This is correct because there is no "MAD doctrine" as told by the false and misleading.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMR
    I guess there is some disagreement even with the MAD camp, not that I expected there not to be.
    I agree. There is no doctrine that we follow. It is just a matter of reading the Bible and believing it. Nobody here avoids mixing cotton and wool, or is building a 300 cubit ark for salvation, and many eat bacon. You know those things are not written to you. It is as simple as that.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    Maybe we're dealing with an issue of semantics here?
    Not at all.

    This is not saying that there are two gospels; but that the focus of the gospel is delivered to different groups: one Jewish, the other Gentile.
    It is, and the evidence is that Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ did not preach the same thing. The opposite in fact. If it was that Paul was to just preach to gentiles, and Peter to Jews, why didn't they do that? They both did both.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    This is correct because there is no "MAD doctrine" as told by the false and misleading.



    I agree. There is no doctrine that we follow. It is just a matter of reading the Bible and believing it. Nobody here avoids mixing cotton and wool, or is building a 300 cubit ark for salvation, and many eat bacon. You know those things are not written to you. It is as simple as that.
    Everyone claims to just read the Bible and believe it. There are many interpretative issues. People proof text out of context, fail to recognize a weak translation, import their own preconceived bias, etc.

    We all follow doctrine if we have a belief about something. The question is if it is biblical doctrine/truth or a wrong doctrine/view.

    Context does tell us that OT issues about Israel do not all apply to us (the moral ones about idolatry, immorality, etc. do apply to us). Comparing John's post-Paul teaching with early Levitical teaching to dismiss it for us is simply wrong/bad interpretation/application.

    We don't build an ark like Noah, but what does that have to do with the principles in Peter, Paul, James, Jesus, John that do apply to us in the NT (they are consistent, complementary, not contradictory)?

    http://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Bible.../dp/0310246040

    This is a very readable introduction to the art and science of Bible interpretation (hermeneutics). It would save you from making the mistakes you do (and Enyart 'The Plot' and sentence within a sentence in English nonsense, etc.).

    MAD falls apart with sound biblical interpretation principles.

    http://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Bible.../dp/0310246040
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

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    The 12 were originally commanded to go into all the world, first to Israel then to the Gentiles. Why is it that changed; why was Paul called?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    The 12 were originally commanded to go into all the world, first to Israel then to the Gentiles. Why is it that changed; why was Paul called?
    Everyone's ministry pattern, including Paul's, was to the Jew first, but not exclusively. Just as you might reach your own city before going to reach Africans, so there was a concentric progression of the gospel from Jerusalem to the whole world to fulfill the Great Commission. The Church is still doing this. Paul had a unique ministry to expand the gospel beyond sectarian borders, and we have a unique ministry in our day and age. This does not mean there is more than one NT, post-cross gospel.

    The 12 did go beyond Jews, but were killed, got old, etc. The commission was not limited to the seed group, but to be carried out by millions of subsequent disciples that grew from the core. Likewise, the Holy Spirit continues the ministry of Jesus in a greater way than limited Christ on earth could. This does not mean the message of the Spirit is not Christ's (which is ultimately simple faith in His person and work, not words Jn. 6:28-29; Jn. 3:16 (grace/faith, not works).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    When I responded to AMR, I pointed out that James addresses his Epistle to the 12 Tribes Scattered abroad.

    James 2:1 states the following....

    "My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality."

    Does this verse prove that it would be incorrect to view James as written to the 12 Tribes and not to the Christian Church?

    Thoughts?
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    The 12 were originally commanded to go into all the world, first to Israel then to the Gentiles. Why is it that changed; why was Paul called?

    Where is a verse that says , first to Israel , then to Gentiles ??

    If you say Matt 28:19 and 20 , Prove your premise , if you can ??

    dan p

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    Messianic Jews corrupted the Gospel

    After the death of St.James, the Just, the sacked Temple Priests, Matt.12.v43-45, jumped over the walls of the Church of God with Torah in their armpits and poisoned the Church. Created atmosphere similar to the Jerusalem with people with hjardened waxes of Letters.

    The Gentile of spirit, the Apostles were killed by the Messianic Jews under Emperor Constantine and they created DARKNESS for their Satanic activities.

    Pope replaced Temple High Priest, Priests, Bishops, the Rabbis, et.making the Churches, the Synagogues of Satan. No body could speak his mind or be killed.

    Holocausts were the fruit of Darkness when the Blind guides led the blind into Pit and the sectarian riots.

    Today, they are getting bundled up in Israel for the Final Burning, Matt.13-v24-30.

    No Peace in the Middle East or East.

    Quote Originally Posted by vegascowboy View Post
    Indeed! Even with us Jewish Christians!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
    When I responded to AMR, I pointed out that James addresses his Epistle to the 12 Tribes Scattered abroad.

    James 2:1 states the following....

    "My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality."

    Does this verse prove that it would be incorrect to view James as written to the 12 Tribes and not to the Christian Church?

    Thoughts?
    Some books, like Hebrews, were written to a primarily Jewish or Jewish Christian audience. Things were contextualized for them. Other books were written for a Gentile audience or both.

    Matthew was slanted to Jews, Mark to Romans, Luke to Greeks, and John to believers. One emphasizes King, Servant, Son of Man, Son of God, etc.

    Using MAD logic, are the Gospels one account of the life of Jesus or 4 different ones, 4 different gospels, messages, etc.

    Just because Hebrews was for Jewish Christians and Romans contextualized the gospel for a Jewish and Gentile audience (Corinthians had many Gentiles, etc.) does not mean they are different gospels. Hebrews and Romans (apart from MAD error) are equally strong statements of the one true NT gospel, but contextualized with a different emphasis/argumentation/background for those of different backgrounds.

    We can contextualize the gospel for an African tribe in a different way than reaching the Chinese or atheists. One gospel, but different audiences.

    Gal. 2:7 one gospel, but a demarcation of ministry.

    If a MAD proponent ever moves to a sounder NT theology, let me know. I will be delighted (just as a cessationist becoming a continuationist or a Calvinist becoming an Open Theist). Of course, my biggest rejoicing is when a sinner becomes a saint through the Lord Jesus Christ!
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nijjhar View Post
    After the death of St.James, the Just, the sacked Temple Priests, Matt.12.v43-45, jumped over the walls of the Church of God with Torah in their armpits and poisoned the Church. Created atmosphere similar to the Jerusalem with people with hjardened waxes of Letters.

    The Gentile of spirit, the Apostles were killed by the Messianic Jews under Emperor Constantine and they created DARKNESS for their Satanic activities.

    Pope replaced Temple High Priest, Priests, Bishops, the Rabbis, et.making the Churches, the Synagogues of Satan. No body could speak his mind or be killed.

    Holocausts were the fruit of Darkness when the Blind guides led the blind into Pit and the sectarian riots.

    Today, they are getting bundled up in Israel for the Final Burning, Matt.13-v24-30.

    No Peace in the Middle East or East.
    It is an Islamic myth that the Scriptures are corrupted. It is also a myth that Mohammed was a true prophet, that the Koran is the Word of God, that Islam is true religion.

    The Deity, death, resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is what makes Christianity unique and the only way to God the Father (all points of the gospel denied by Muslims).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    The 12 were originally commanded to go into all the world, first to Israel then to the Gentiles. Why is it that changed; why was Paul called?
    And Paul went to Israel first, then the gentiles, yet he claims him and Peter have a different ministry.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Gal. 2:7 one gospel, but a demarcation of ministry.
    So tell us what it is and why.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Godrulz, your post #25 was pretty good....but it kind of danced around my question. In James' opening, he addresses the twelve tribes, scattered abroad. In chapter 2 he admonishes Christians to not hold the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ with partiality.

    So, what we see here is some confusing language. Of course it's possible that he was writing to Jewish Christians, and that does clear things up..and considering the times (ie. scattering and persecution) his admonitions make perfect sense.

    What is important to consider though, and this is a point of MAD doctrine, is whether or not Gentile and Jewish Christians are held to the same standard or ways of living.

    TBC
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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    There is a very good case to be made that they are not.

    For example, in the early days of Gentiles being added to the church, this issue came up. Should Gentile converts to Jesus be expected to become circumcised and keep the laws of Moses?

    The answer was no. Acts 15

    "Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

    "Known to God from eternity are all His works. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood."

    So, in my mind.....we see a dispensation right here. First began by God through Peter, and continuing through Paul. Gentile Christian and Jewish Christians are not encouraged to live in the same manner.

    Would you agree with this?
    Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.

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