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Thread: ARE THE 12 APOSTLES IN or OUT of the Body of Christ ??

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    not that I disagree with dispensation-ism,I frequent here to look at the different opinions about it. That said though,,,the 12 if they believed that they were saved by the grace of Jesus Christ the same as the gentiles,,,then would they be in?,,,(I ask this as a neophyte)

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    Quote Originally Posted by whitestone View Post
    not that I disagree with dispensation-ism,I frequent here to look at the different opinions about it. That said though,,,the 12 if they believed that they were saved by the grace of Jesus Christ the same as the gentiles,,,then would they be in?,,,(I ask this as a neophyte)
    well why I ask this is that they state in (Acts 15:11 KJV) that they believed that they were saved "by the grace of the lord Jesus Christ,we shall be saved as they",so they believed that salvation was the exact same with the Israel/Jew as the same with the gentiles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whitestone View Post
    well why I ask this is that they state in (Acts 15:11 KJV) that they believed that they were saved "by the grace of the lord Jesus Christ,we shall be saved as they",so they believed that salvation was the exact same with the Israel/Jew as the same with the gentiles.

    Hi , and I will start an OP on what Acts 15:11 really means !!

    dan p

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    Paul the Apostle indicates that the Apostles are members of the Body of Christ 1 Cor 12:12-28

    12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

    13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    14 For the body is not one member, but many.

    15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

    16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

    17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

    18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

    19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

    20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

    21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

    22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

    23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

    24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

    25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

    26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

    27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Yes, they are of the body. Where do you think the body came from?

    Galatians 2:9 King James Version (KJV)

    9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Yes, they are of the body. Where do you think the body came from?

    Galatians 2:9 King James Version (KJV)

    9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
    It should be noted that the Apostle James was already dead when this was written. The James Paul refers to is Jesus' brother James, who was head of the Church in Jerusalem.
    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saved.One.by.Grace View Post
    It should be noted that the Apostle James was already dead when this was written. The James Paul refers to is Jesus' brother James, who was head of the Church in Jerusalem.
    Yes, many people get this confused.

    Unlike Judas Iscariot, there is no scriptural reference of James being replaced.

    And the James that was heading the Church in Jerusalem was NOT one of the twelve.
    turbosixx says "Yep. Pentecost was the first time men heard the gospel."
    When corrected, turbsixx says "diversion tactic"
    turbosixx is dishonest.


    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whitestone View Post
    well why I ask this is that they state in (Acts 15:11 KJV) that they believed that they were saved "by the grace of the lord Jesus Christ,we shall be saved as they",so they believed that salvation was the exact same with the Israel/Jew as the same with the gentiles.
    The Twelve's and their converts was a PROPHESIED Grace.

    Acts 2:

    38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

    Acts 3:

    17. And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
    18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
    19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
    20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
    24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers,
    saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
    26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one oft you from his iniquities.

    Which was temporarily suspended, but was/is nevertheless a PROPHESIED Grace.

    Romans 11:

    25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles
    be come in.
    26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    And as the above also shows, it is tied to their obedience under their coming trying of their faith:

    1 Peter 1:

    7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    8. Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
    9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
    10. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
    12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you
    with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
    13. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

    I'd say, no, they were not Body members. The Body's is a Grace "hid IN GOD" until revealed with and through its first Body member, for a pattern to them that should THEREAFTER believe.

    For, in fact, Paul had been un-save-able under that PROPHESIED Grace's condition as to the Spirit's witness.

    Mathew 12:

    30. He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
    31. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
    32. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Acts 26:

    9. I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
    10. Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
    11. And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
    12. Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
    13. At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
    14. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
    15. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
    16. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee
    a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
    17. Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
    18. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

    1 Timothy 1:

    11. According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
    12. And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
    13. Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
    14. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
    15. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
    16. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    Notice - no condition - instead, God simply reached down and saved him from himself!

    Titus 1:

    1. Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
    2. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
    3. But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

    Titus 3:

    1. Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
    2. To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
    3. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
    4. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    7. That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    2 Corinthians 5:

    21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Paul's this now - Romans 5:

    11. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

    To Peter's yet to come this - Acts 3:

    19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

    Paul's - Ephesians 2's:

    8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Peter's - 1 Peter:

    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the
    dead,
    4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
    5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    And on and on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    The Twelve's and their converts was a PROPHESIED Grace.
    Theirs, a receiving at the end of their faith; a "grace that should come unto" them

    1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    Ours is not of ourselves, but through His faith (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV). It is a gift and not at the end, but immediately as we "are saved" (1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV, Ephesians 2:5 KJV).

    There are too many differences. I don't know why people are always trying to make that which is different, the same.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Yes, they are of the body. Where do you think the body came from?
    So you have half of the Body waiting for their sins to be blotted out (Acts 3:19-21 KJV) while the other half has already (now) received the atonement (Romans 5:12 KJV)?

    ridiculous
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    So you have half of the Body waiting for their sins to be blotted out (Acts 3:19-21 KJV) while the other half has already (now) received the atonement (Romans 5:12 KJV)?

    ridiculous
    So you do not believe that the apostles are part of the Body of Christ?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    So you do not believe that the apostles are part of the Body of Christ?

    Hi and IF the 12 apostles are part of the Body of Christ , the Present tense of Gal 3:28 EXCLUDES them !!

    How can they be judging Israel on 12 thrones and yet be in the Body ?

    There HOPE can not change of ruling on earth , can it ??

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and IF the 12 apostles are part of the Body of Christ , the Present tense of Gal 3:28 EXCLUDES them !!

    How can they be judging Israel on 12 thrones and yet be in the Body ?

    There HOPE can not change of ruling on earth , can it ??

    dan p
    You assume that at that time Israel is not part of the body?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

    Jim Elliot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    So you do not believe that the apostles are part of the Body of Christ?
    I do not believe the 12 are in the Body. They are a royal priesthood, an holy nation (1 Peter 2:9 KJV). In the Body, there is no nationality (Galatians 3:28 KJV).
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Why did you just ignore what the Lord Jesus Himself said to the Jews who lived under the Law?:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
    If Mid-Acts is about anything, it is about the issue of consistency. Even our wiser opponents assert Mid-Acts is at least a consistent Dispensationalism.

    Key to said consistency?

    A question like 'what is the qualifier?'

    It is a question like that - consistently asked that resulted in the Mid-Acts distinction to begin with.

    In this, what is the qualifier of said "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me"?

    John 8:

    31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    The issue there - Psalm 111's:

    10. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

    Such is the Word of His patience.

    Revelation 3:

    9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have
    loved thee.
    10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

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