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Thread: ARE THE 12 APOSTLES IN or OUT of the Body of Christ ??

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Really? Is your Bible missing some pages?

    Rom 11:13 (KJV)
    (11:13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

    Acts 14:14 (KJV)
    (14:14) [Which] when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard [of], they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

    There are two right there.
    Shalom. Yes, that is two. But is that all and do we have the order right? Does the order matter? Shalom. Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Shalom. Yes, that is two. But is that all and do we have the order right? Does the order matter? Shalom. Jacob
    Jacob, you consistently ask vague questions where it is clear to me that you have some sort of an agenda that you are hiding.

    Please plainly.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The list: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?...quot-list-quot Great Bible software: http://www.theword.net/

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  4. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Jacob, you consistently ask vague questions where it is clear to me that you have some sort of an agenda that you are hiding.

    Please plainly.
    The agenda, if there be one, is that there are twelve apostles. You said there are twelve tribes, and there are. But this was about twelve apostles. Then you mentioned Paul. If it was because I mentioned Paul then we have proven how this discussion gets off on the wrong foot, because in the verse you quoted Barnabus is mentioned first. I have it that there may be other apostles, but that we need to establish that there are twelve apostles. That has to, must, be established first. Do you believe that this has been established? Can you answer in the affirmative? If not, and when people add, it takes away from the discussion about the twelve apostles. The number is not something to argue with, to argue over, or to argue about. But Jesus chose twelve apostles. Do you agree? The only thing I can say here is that twelve apostles are identified. But that this was written after or one was mentioned as Judas Iscariot, when there were eleven before there were twelve again if there were twelve again. One person replaced Judas (Iscariot). Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    The agenda, if there be one, is that there are twelve apostles. You said there are twelve tribes, and there are. But this was about twelve apostles. Then you mentioned Paul. If it was because I mentioned Paul then we have proven how this discussion gets off on the wrong foot, because in the verse you quoted Barnabus is mentioned first. I have it that there may be other apostles, but that we need to establish that there are twelve apostles. That has to, must, be established first. Do you believe that this has been established? Can you answer in the affirmative? If not, and when people add, it takes away from the discussion about the twelve apostles. The number is not something to argue with, to argue over, or to argue about. But Jesus chose twelve apostles. Do you agree? The only thing I can say here is that twelve apostles are identified. But that this was written after or one was mentioned as Judas Iscariot, when there were eleven before there were twelve again if there were twelve again. One person replaced Judas (Iscariot). Shalom.

    Jacob
    You are all over the road Jacob. You are very nearly completely incoherent.

    • God has many apostles.
    • God chose twelve apostles for a purpose with Israel. Twelve apostles to judge twelve tribes.
    • Jesus is an apostle (Hebrews 3:1).
    • An apostle is a messenger.
    • Paul is an apostle, but not in the same way as the twelve.
    • Barnabas is an apostle (his name being listed first in that verse has no relevance, it not listed as an order).
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The list: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?...quot-list-quot Great Bible software: http://www.theword.net/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    You are all over the road Jacob. You are very nearly completely incoherent.

    • God has many apostles.
    • God chose twelve apostles for a purpose with Israel. Twelve apostles to judge twelve tribes.
    • Jesus is an apostle (Hebrews 3:1).
    • An apostle is a messenger.
    • Paul is an apostle, but not in the same way as the twelve.
    • Barnabas is an apostle (his name being listed first in that verse has no relevance, it not listed as an order).
    Shalom.

    Yes, Jesus is an apostle.

    There are twelve apostles, that Jesus chose. After one died, a replacement was found or chosen by lot.

    The apostles such as Paul and Barnabus and any others if there are any, that are different from, or being different from, the twelve, are not the same as the twelve.

    Good points!

    I think I became distracted by at least one of your responses. I was trying not to be distracted by anyone. But if I just state the truth I do not know why people would want to start talking about something else that does not relate to the OP. Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Shalom.

    Yes, Jesus is an apostle.

    There are twelve apostles, that Jesus chose. After one died, a replacement was found or chosen by lot.
    Jesus also chose Paul.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The list: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?...quot-list-quot Great Bible software: http://www.theword.net/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    Jesus also chose Paul.
    Shalom.

    He did. You are correct.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Shalom. Yes, that is two. But is that all and do we have the order right? Does the order matter? Shalom. Jacob
    Within 1st Century Messianic Judaism (Matthew thru Early Acts) there were Twelve Apostles; Matthias having been picked to replace Judas Iscariot.

    Matthew 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

    Later, after His resurrection, we read...

    Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    THAT IS the narrative within which the purpose and role of said Twelve is to be understood IF said purpose for them and said role of thiers, is to be properly understood.

    This here...

    Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

    Which is this here...

    Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Afterwhich, this here takes place...

    Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    So what happened to said 1st Century Messianic Judaism and with it, the mission of said Twelve?

    And why the need for Paul?

    Why this other Apostle - in fact, one too many to God's stated purpose in the Twelve?

    What saith the Scripture, Jacob?

    Why even the need for this other Apostle (Paul)?

    Think hard.

    Consider the possible holes in your answer.

    THIS was Right Divider's point to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Within 1st Century Messianic Judaism (Matthew thru Early Acts) there were Twelve Apostles; Matthias having been picked to replace Judas Iscariot.

    Matthew 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

    Later, after His resurrection, we read...

    Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    THAT IS the narrative within which the purpose and role of said Twelve is to be understood IF said purpose for them and said role of thiers, is to be properly understood.

    This here...

    Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

    Which is this here...

    Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Afterwhich, this here takes place...

    Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    So what happened to said 1st Century Messianic Judaism and with it, the mission of said Twelve?

    And why the need for Paul?

    Why this other Apostle - in fact, one too many to God's stated purpose in the Twelve?

    What saith the Scripture, Jacob?

    Why even the need for this other Apostle (Paul)?

    Think hard.

    Consider the possible holes in your answer.

    THIS was Right Divider's point to you.
    Shalom. As a Jew I am flexible in my answer and understanding, and in regard to different people expressing different things. I know that there were twelve apostles, and it is indicated that Judas Iscariot was among them.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Shalom. As a Jew I am flexible in my answer and understanding, and in regard to different people expressing different things. I know that there were twelve apostles, and it is indicated that Judas Iscariot was among them.

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    He WAS. You are correct.

    What is your point?
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The list: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?...quot-list-quot Great Bible software: http://www.theword.net/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    He WAS. You are correct.

    What is your point?
    Shalom.

    Personally I would like to study more about the twelve apostles. However, looking at each individual apostle might be different from answering the OP's question. Is it these twelve apostle's that the question is about? Or, if twelve, would it be with Judas Iscariot's replacement?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Shalom.

    Personally I would like to study more about the twelve apostles. However, looking at each individual apostle might be different from answering the OP's question. Is it these twelve apostle's that the question is about? Or, if twelve, would it be with Judas Iscariot's replacement?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    It appears that you did not understand the original question.

    The bottom line is that Gods mission for the apostle Paul was not identical to Gods mission for the twelve. Therefore, the body of Christ is something different from Israel.

    Israel is a nation, the body of Christ is not.

    Israel is promised a land, the body of Christ is not.

    The church which is His body is NOT the same as the nation of Israel (the church in the wilderness).
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The list: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?...quot-list-quot Great Bible software: http://www.theword.net/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    It appears that you did not understand the original question.

    The bottom line is that Gods mission for the apostle Paul was not identical to Gods mission for the twelve. Therefore, the body of Christ is something different from Israel.

    Israel is a nation, the body of Christ is not.

    Israel is promised a land, the body of Christ is not.

    The church which is His body is NOT the same as the nation of Israel (the church in the wilderness).
    Shalom.

    Is the question in the OP comparing the nation of Israel and the body of Christ?

    When did the body of Christ come to be? Who is in the body of Christ and who is not?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    Shalom.

    Is the question in the OP comparing the nation of Israel and the body of Christ?

    When did the body of Christ come to be? Who is in the body of Christ and who is not?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    It is basically asking if all believers are in the body of Christ. If true, then the twelve would be in the body of Christ. If false, then they are not.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The list: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?...quot-list-quot Great Bible software: http://www.theword.net/

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Right Divider For Your Post:

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  21. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Divider View Post
    It is basically asking if all believers are in the body of Christ. If true, then the twelve would be in the body of Christ. If false, then they are not.
    Shalom.

    Israel is made up of Jews. Is the body of Christ made up of Jews and Gentiles?

    When a person becomes a believer do they join with Israel?

    Shalom.

    Jacob
    John 1:40-41 NASB, John 1:49 NASB - 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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