User Tag List

Page 6 of 12 FirstFirst ... 3456789 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 168

Thread: Predestination and freedom

  1. #76
    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Winchester, Hants
    Posts
    8,303
    Thanks
    222
    Thanked 1,381 Times in 796 Posts

    Blog Entries
    14
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1203389
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee52 View Post
    And you keep ignoring the rest of the passage. Please, read on. I post your proof text and then keeping it in context show the rest of the verses around it.

    Here: But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. Romans 5:15-18 ESV

    See how easy that is to keep Scripture in context?

    Did you see that very last sentence?
    It says nothing about the sin that is brought upon all men by Adam but what God has done about it. If we were not sinners after the manner of Adam's sin this would have no meaning. The fact remains that one trespass [Adam's] led to condemnation for all and one act of righteousness leads to justification for all.

    If you deny the condemnation of one man [Adam] what claim can you have upon Christ's act of righteousness whereby you are justified?
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

  2. #77
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    53
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    It says nothing about the sin that is brought upon all men by Adam but what God has done about it. If we were not sinners after the manner of Adam's sin this would have no meaning. The fact remains that one trespass [Adam's] led to condemnation for all and one act of righteousness leads to justification for all.

    If you deny the condemnation of one man [Adam] what claim can you have upon Christ's act of righteousness whereby you are justified?
    I have never denied Adam's sin and God's condemnation of Adam.

    You again change the subject to avoid providing Scripture to support your theology.

    You attempt to put me on the defensive to answer your attacks so that you do not have to provide your Scripture references.

    Your redirect and attack is an old, old tactic of Calvinists that do not know how to defend their religion.

    Answer my requests for Scriptural support for your positions.

    Blessings to you and I pray the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth,
    Lee

  3. #78
    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Winchester, Hants
    Posts
    8,303
    Thanks
    222
    Thanked 1,381 Times in 796 Posts

    Blog Entries
    14
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1203389
    This scripture speaks about Adam's sin being passed upon all men

    I have given plenty scripture, it just bounces off you.
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

  4. #79
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    53
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    65
    Oh, and it is bedtime here in Germany, you have all of my night to Google your Calvinist theology to present at least the book justification from the Synod of Dort.

    (BTW, Calvin's Institutes are also available online, but all night will not be enough time for you to read them through).

    Stick with the justification of TULIP from the Synod.....

    Blessings and I will include your search for truth of God in my prayers.

    I look forward to reading your responses and Scripture references in the morning.

    Could some noteworthy Reformed person help her out here?

    Thanks,
    Good night all. May God richly bless all who are Christians and also those searching for Jesus. Amen.

    Lee

  5. #80
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    53
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    This scripture speaks about Adam's sin being passed upon all men

    I have given plenty scripture, it just bounces off you.
    Where? Where have you provided Scripture? Not on this thread. Not to me over the course of the last couple of days.

    Please, I have posted Scripture.

    I am slow of mind, please be kind and provide me with the Scriptures that you base your theology upon.

    Thank you,
    Lee

  6. #81
    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Winchester, Hants
    Posts
    8,303
    Thanks
    222
    Thanked 1,381 Times in 796 Posts

    Blog Entries
    14
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1203389
    If you deny that Adam's sin resulted in your condemnation how can you receive justification through Christ's one act of obedience?
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

  7. #82
    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Winchester, Hants
    Posts
    8,303
    Thanks
    222
    Thanked 1,381 Times in 796 Posts

    Blog Entries
    14
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1203389
    ALL men I have repeated it again and again
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

  8. #83
    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Winchester, Hants
    Posts
    8,303
    Thanks
    222
    Thanked 1,381 Times in 796 Posts

    Blog Entries
    14
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    1203389
    It is God who says you were predestined and chosen before the world began to be for the praise of His glorious grace...how then can you say it was YOUR will?

    The scriptures just bounce off you
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

  9. #84
    Over 750 post club Dialogos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    769
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 31 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    457363
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee52 View Post
    Exactly, it doesn't. It makes it relevant to us ALL.
    And consequently those who bear fruit do so because they were ďappointedĒ to bear fruit and not only that the fruit would arrive but that it would ďremainĒ (John 15:16)
    So the question is who does God choose and when does He choose them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Actually, God chose us ALL when He came up with the idea of creating us in His image. That some choose to go against God, like Satan and a third of the angels in Heaven does not diminish that God chose each of us and then made it ever so easy to be reconciled to Him, IF we accept the invitation.
    Thatís not the kind of choosing John is talking about, is it? Everyone, to one extent or another, is an image bearer of God, that does not mean that they will bear fruit that will remain, does it?
    John is talking about the kind of choosing where God chooses us to bear fruit that will remain. Letís keep focused on what we mean when we say ďGod chooses.Ē God chooses all sorts of people for all sorts of things in all sorts of ways, but in John 15 Jesus is talking about choosing his disciples to abide in Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    It is MORE Biblical than changing the meaning of words like ALL and stating that it means ONLY all of the ELECT. Or changing words like whoever to ONLY the ELECT.
    ďAllĒ is a word that needs to be contextually defined. All does not always mean every single one in the world. When I say I am going to pick up all of the kids from the school for youth group I donít mean I am picking up every child in the world, nor do I even mean that I am picking up every child in the school, I mean I am picking up every child in the school who is going to youth group at our church that night.
    Thatís not changing the meaning of a word, itís just moving from defining a word in general to allowing a word to be defined in context. Arminians refuse to let ďallĒ be defined in contextually and we will see that in your example from 2 Peter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Let's see, perhaps "predestination of ONLY the ELECT". Calvinism 101, 201, 301, 401, 501. Every year in every Reformed doctrine college, university, seminary.
    As opposed to the predestination of every single person who has ever lived? Yes. But for all your education in Calvinism, you still havenít correctly articulated the doctrine of election properly.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    If humanity, by choice, rejects God, then humanity, by choice, can accept God.
    Thatís a fine assertion but it isnít biblical. The bible says that the natural man cannot understand spiritual things. They arenít able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (see 1 Cor 2:14)
    A spiritually neutral human (can you say Pelagius) might have been able to choose God, but a spiritually dead human cannot and does not apart from the intervention of God by His Spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    We are not limited to a one way spiritual street here. There is no Scripture, in context, that confirms Calvin's doctrine of total depravity.
    Of course there are. Here are just a few.
    Ephesians 2:1-3, John 6:44, Romans 3:1-23 and 2 Cor 4:3-4.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Romans 3:11 is Paul combining OT Scriptures to make a point. Those OT Scriptures are Psalms, not prophecy, and not "thus sayeth the Lord" Scriptures.
    I see you think that Psalms are only quasi-inspired? Not really Godís word? If they arenít the word of the Lord then whose words are they? Do you believe that the psalms are true Lee. When David says, ďFor you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call on you.Ē Psalm 86:5
    Do you think that this is somehow less true because itís a song lyric?
    Furthermore, what is the point Paul is trying to make from stringing those OT scripture together?
    I think it is pretty clear, Paul is saying that all have sinned, they do not fear God and do not seek God.
    So you tell me. How does the fact that they are song lyrics negate the content and meaning of those verses? How do you get from those verses that men do fear God on their own and they do seek God on their own.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Whether you, Calvin, Augustine, or Plato (from whom Augustine actually got determinism philosophy), like it or not, the Bible is full of righteous humans in the presence of God, before Jesus came to earth as a human. In fact, Jesus did not come to save the righteous. He came to save sinners.
    I see so heaven is populated by two groups. One group who stand before God clothed sufficiently in their own righteousness and the rest of us who are sinners who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Right?
    Wrong.


    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:23-24 ESV)


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Ah, now we come to what Wesley calls "prevenient grace".
    Right, the invention of Wesleyís mind that keeps Wesley from being a heretic. Where in scripture can we see this Lee?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    God, through Holy Spirit, draws ALL humanity to the foot of the cross.
    Really because I am pretty sure that millions of people lived and died never having even heard of Jesus or the foot of the cross, so you prove to me how God has drawn ALL humans to the foot of the cross. Scripture please. Tell me please what verse proves that the Native American man who died twenty two minutes after Jesus died was somehow drawn, by the Holy Spirit, to the foot of the cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    He did all the work, and does all the work in our lives through the power of His Holy Spirit.
    Here is where your consistency is about to fall apart. Why would someone who can choose Christ entirely without the aid of the Holy Spirit need the Holy Spirit after they come to Christ (on their own) in order to live the rest of their lives? Isnít someone who is spiritually alive enough to come to Christ without the Holy Spirit spiritually alive enough to live a life pleasing to God without the Spiritís aid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    We merely cooperate to a greater or lesser extent, which shows in our lives.
    Which is it, greater or lesser.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    We are either growing more holy, become stagnant, or fall away from His grace.
    Clearly you donítí believe in eternal security.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Show me the Scripture where it says you are the owner of depravity, or total depravity.
    1 Cor 2:14.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Yes, you did not realize that Augustine of Hippo was a student of Plato and derived his determinism philosophy from Plato and injected it into Christianity where before the 4th century it did not exist, and to this day does not exist in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
    So thatís what you are, Eastern Orthodox?
    I realize Augustine was familiar with platonic thought. Iím not a monergist because of Autustine, Iím a monergist because of scripture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Yes, it would, but you Calvinists limit God's ability by saying that not only Ephesians 1, but John 3 does not apply to everyone on earth. Even though, Scripture is quite clear about God's ability to present His salvation message to ALL.
    Two thoughts. First, whether or not God is able to present the salvation message to ALL is conditioned by the reality that God has not presented his salvation message to all. Millions have died never hearing the gospel and there are STILL people who havenít heard the gospel.
    Second, there isít a Calvinist I know who has ever denied that whosoever believes in Him will never perish so Iím afraid your comments here donít hit their mark.

    Now, regarding predestination you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Please note what Paul actually wrote: "To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:" That "and are faithful" is key.
    Not really, God predestined them before the foundations of the world. You tell me, which happened first, Godís predestination or their being faithful?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    It is a choice to remain faithful.
    Calvinists donít deny that people choose, we deny that people have the power to do so apart from the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    God's predestination was culminated in Adam and Eve.
    Scripture please. Iíd like the reference that backs up this assertion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    You think too small of God.
    I think God is big enough to be the One who does the choosing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    He predestined ALL humanity.
    Lets take that assumption and square it against scripture.


    And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 ESV)


    Do you think that God justified and glorified all of humanity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Let's look beyond your Reformed proof text to verses 9 and 10: "making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth."

    Once again, Calvinists ignore that which does not conform to their doctrine, or change the meaning of words and phrases that do not agree and make them agree. What part of ALL things in him (both) things in Heaven and things on earth is God not capable of uniting in His will?
    I see, so all things being united in Him means that all, Satan, the fallen angels, all unbelievers, God haters and idolaters will be united in Him, right?
    No?
    I think you need to rethink the way you are interpreting that passage friend.
    God united all things in Him. All who are in Him are united together, but not all are in Him. And the scripture is clear that we canít find ourselves in Him without faith in Him and the scriptures are also abundantly clear that we, being dead in our trespasses and sins, cannot have faith without the rescuing regeneration of the Holy Spirit. For if the Holy Spirit does not open our blind eyes, we all would have continued to maintain the message of the cross was foolishness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee
    Here is a hint: those things that possess God given free will, which is used to go against His will. Otherwise, Peter would not have needed to say this: "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed."

    Now, please explain the accepted Calvinist, Augustinian, Platonic meaning of " any" and "all" in Peter's 2nd letter to Christians.
    Sure, letís just look at the ďallísĒ and ďanyísĒ in context.
    The answer is in the text you quoted, you just donít see it because your eyes are too conditioned by your traditions. The Lord is not slow in fulfilling his promises but is patent toward who?
    Who?
    patient toward youÖ
    Who is the ďyouĒ in 2 Peter 3:9?
    Is Peter writing to all of mankind?
    No, he is writing to the beloved (verse 8). Arminians badly abuse this passage by ignoring the context of the audience. Peter isnít writing to all of humanity, he is writing to Godís beloved. Godís patience is displayed toward his beloved, the elect, (the ďyouĒ of verse 9).
    But let me ask you this if that answer isnít satisfactory to you.
    If you think that Godís patience described in 2 Peter 3 is set toward all of humanity and that God is not willing that any human being perish, then why do some perish?
    Why wonít God just wait long enough for every human to repent? Peter said that purpose of Godís patience was to bring repentance, right? Why then would God ever allow anyoneís life to end before they believed? Why would God ever let His son return to a world populated by unbelievers? All of these will perish, will they not? Your use of the verse is actually self-defeating. You say Godís patience towards the objects of his patience is insufficient. God just didnít wait long enough for all of humanity to repent. In contrast to the actual verse, you think God is absolutely willing to let the ďanyĒ perish.
    It seems to me the one who needs to look at the definitions of the ďallĒs and ďanyĒs in that passage, is you. Because, as it stands, you donít really believe that God is patient toward ďallĒ (as you define it) because there are some who will find the end of Godís patience and will die in their sins, and you donít really believe that God isnít willing that ďanyĒ (as you define it) should perish because you know that many will.
    I donít, I see that God is referring to the beloved (verse 8), the elect, and God is patient toward ALL the elect, He will not end their lives or the world before every single one of them lives in repentance and I am quite certain He is not willing that any of his beloved perish.
    Looking forward to your response.

    Godís blessings be with you.

    Dialogos
    αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
    Worthy is the Lamb

  10. #85
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Anderson, IN
    Posts
    20,720
    Thanks
    1,174
    Thanked 13,117 Times in 10,018 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147864
    Quote Originally Posted by Dialogos View Post
    \
    Wrong again.

    Acts 17:28.
    Maybe you should learn to read and comprehend the meanings of words.


  11. #86
    Silver Member Nang's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    7,808
    Thanks
    1,182
    Thanked 2,224 Times in 1,604 Posts

    Mentioned
    36 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    257366
    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Maybe you should learn to read and comprehend the meanings of words.

    Translation: "I am too lazy and unqualified to present decent answer to this comprehensive post by Dialogos."
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  12. #87
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Anderson, IN
    Posts
    20,720
    Thanks
    1,174
    Thanked 13,117 Times in 10,018 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147864
    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Translation: "I am too lazy and unqualified to present decent answer to this comprehensive post by Dialogos."
    FAIL

    Dialogos didn't post anything comprehensive, for one. For two he was responding to a post I made about a year or so ago, I think. And third, he was wrong, as my post is in plain English and is held to be true by all but hardcore Calvinists. Dialogos doesn't understand the meaning of the word "directly." And fourth, the verse he posted doesn't contradict my statement in the least.


  13. #88
    Silver Member Nang's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    7,808
    Thanks
    1,182
    Thanked 2,224 Times in 1,604 Posts

    Mentioned
    36 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    257366
    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    FAIL

    Dialogos didn't post anything comprehensive, for one. For two he was responding to a post I made about a year or so ago, I think. And third, he was wrong, as my post is in plain English and is held to be true by all but hardcore Calvinists. Dialogos doesn't understand the meaning of the word "directly." And fourth, the verse he posted doesn't contradict my statement in the least.
    Is this your excuse(s)?



    Dialogos runs exegetical circles around you . . .
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  14. #89
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Anderson, IN
    Posts
    20,720
    Thanks
    1,174
    Thanked 13,117 Times in 10,018 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147864
    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Is this your excuse(s)?



    Dialogos runs exegetical circles around you . . .


    He posted one word and a single Bible verse.

    Now, if you think that Bible verse proves me wrong then show how it does, because he didn't even try.


  15. #90
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    53
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by Dialogos View Post
    And consequently those who bear fruit do so because they were ďappointedĒ to bear fruit and not only that the fruit would arrive but that it would ďremainĒ (John 15:16)
    So the question is who does God choose and when does He choose them?

    Thatís not the kind of choosing John is talking about, is it? Everyone, to one extent or another, is an image bearer of God, that does not mean that they will bear fruit that will remain, does it?
    John is talking about the kind of choosing where God chooses us to bear fruit that will remain. Letís keep focused on what we mean when we say ďGod chooses.Ē God chooses all sorts of people for all sorts of things in all sorts of ways, but in John 15 Jesus is talking about choosing his disciples to abide in Him.


    ďAllĒ is a word that needs to be contextually defined. All does not always mean every single one in the world. When I say I am going to pick up all of the kids from the school for youth group I donít mean I am picking up every child in the world, nor do I even mean that I am picking up every child in the school, I mean I am picking up every child in the school who is going to youth group at our church that night.
    Thatís not changing the meaning of a word, itís just moving from defining a word in general to allowing a word to be defined in context. Arminians refuse to let ďallĒ be defined in contextually and we will see that in your example from 2 Peter.

    As opposed to the predestination of every single person who has ever lived? Yes. But for all your education in Calvinism, you still havenít correctly articulated the doctrine of election properly.




    Thatís a fine assertion but it isnít biblical. The bible says that the natural man cannot understand spiritual things. They arenít able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (see 1 Cor 2:14)
    A spiritually neutral human (can you say Pelagius) might have been able to choose God, but a spiritually dead human cannot and does not apart from the intervention of God by His Spirit.


    Of course there are. Here are just a few.
    Ephesians 2:1-3, John 6:44, Romans 3:1-23 and 2 Cor 4:3-4.

    I see you think that Psalms are only quasi-inspired? Not really Godís word? If they arenít the word of the Lord then whose words are they? Do you believe that the psalms are true Lee. When David says, ďFor you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call on you.Ē Psalm 86:5
    Do you think that this is somehow less true because itís a song lyric?
    Furthermore, what is the point Paul is trying to make from stringing those OT scripture together?
    I think it is pretty clear, Paul is saying that all have sinned, they do not fear God and do not seek God.
    So you tell me. How does the fact that they are song lyrics negate the content and meaning of those verses? How do you get from those verses that men do fear God on their own and they do seek God on their own.



    I see so heaven is populated by two groups. One group who stand before God clothed sufficiently in their own righteousness and the rest of us who are sinners who are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Right?
    Wrong.


    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:23-24 ESV)



    Right, the invention of Wesleyís mind that keeps Wesley from being a heretic. Where in scripture can we see this Lee?


    Really because I am pretty sure that millions of people lived and died never having even heard of Jesus or the foot of the cross, so you prove to me how God has drawn ALL humans to the foot of the cross. Scripture please. Tell me please what verse proves that the Native American man who died twenty two minutes after Jesus died was somehow drawn, by the Holy Spirit, to the foot of the cross.


    Here is where your consistency is about to fall apart. Why would someone who can choose Christ entirely without the aid of the Holy Spirit need the Holy Spirit after they come to Christ (on their own) in order to live the rest of their lives? Isnít someone who is spiritually alive enough to come to Christ without the Holy Spirit spiritually alive enough to live a life pleasing to God without the Spiritís aid?


    Which is it, greater or lesser.

    Clearly you donítí believe in eternal security.


    1 Cor 2:14.

    So thatís what you are, Eastern Orthodox?
    I realize Augustine was familiar with platonic thought. Iím not a monergist because of Autustine, Iím a monergist because of scripture.

    Two thoughts. First, whether or not God is able to present the salvation message to ALL is conditioned by the reality that God has not presented his salvation message to all. Millions have died never hearing the gospel and there are STILL people who havenít heard the gospel.
    Second, there isít a Calvinist I know who has ever denied that whosoever believes in Him will never perish so Iím afraid your comments here donít hit their mark.

    Now, regarding predestination you said:

    Not really, God predestined them before the foundations of the world. You tell me, which happened first, Godís predestination or their being faithful?

    Calvinists donít deny that people choose, we deny that people have the power to do so apart from the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

    Scripture please. Iíd like the reference that backs up this assertion.

    I think God is big enough to be the One who does the choosing.

    Lets take that assumption and square it against scripture.


    And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 ESV)


    Do you think that God justified and glorified all of humanity?


    I see, so all things being united in Him means that all, Satan, the fallen angels, all unbelievers, God haters and idolaters will be united in Him, right?
    No?
    I think you need to rethink the way you are interpreting that passage friend.
    God united all things in Him. All who are in Him are united together, but not all are in Him. And the scripture is clear that we canít find ourselves in Him without faith in Him and the scriptures are also abundantly clear that we, being dead in our trespasses and sins, cannot have faith without the rescuing regeneration of the Holy Spirit. For if the Holy Spirit does not open our blind eyes, we all would have continued to maintain the message of the cross was foolishness.

    Sure, letís just look at the ďallísĒ and ďanyísĒ in context.
    The answer is in the text you quoted, you just donít see it because your eyes are too conditioned by your traditions. The Lord is not slow in fulfilling his promises but is patent toward who?
    Who?
    patient toward youÖ
    Who is the ďyouĒ in 2 Peter 3:9?
    Is Peter writing to all of mankind?
    No, he is writing to the beloved (verse 8). Arminians badly abuse this passage by ignoring the context of the audience. Peter isnít writing to all of humanity, he is writing to Godís beloved. Godís patience is displayed toward his beloved, the elect, (the ďyouĒ of verse 9).
    But let me ask you this if that answer isnít satisfactory to you.
    If you think that Godís patience described in 2 Peter 3 is set toward all of humanity and that God is not willing that any human being perish, then why do some perish?
    Why wonít God just wait long enough for every human to repent? Peter said that purpose of Godís patience was to bring repentance, right? Why then would God ever allow anyoneís life to end before they believed? Why would God ever let His son return to a world populated by unbelievers? All of these will perish, will they not? Your use of the verse is actually self-defeating. You say Godís patience towards the objects of his patience is insufficient. God just didnít wait long enough for all of humanity to repent. In contrast to the actual verse, you think God is absolutely willing to let the ďanyĒ perish.
    It seems to me the one who needs to look at the definitions of the ďallĒs and ďanyĒs in that passage, is you. Because, as it stands, you donít really believe that God is patient toward ďallĒ (as you define it) because there are some who will find the end of Godís patience and will die in their sins, and you donít really believe that God isnít willing that ďanyĒ (as you define it) should perish because you know that many will.
    I donít, I see that God is referring to the beloved (verse 8), the elect, and God is patient toward ALL the elect, He will not end their lives or the world before every single one of them lives in repentance and I am quite certain He is not willing that any of his beloved perish.
    Looking forward to your response.

    Godís blessings be with you.

    Dialogos
    Dialogos,
    Thanks for your response. I will reply to each as we go through the day, as I have time. I will make one remark here concerning the Psalms and your position. You talk about context in the preceding areas and then want to take the Psalms out of context of who wrote them and why. Some were songs of joy, some were songs of great travail. Some are merely songs or poems. Were they God inspired, some yes, some no. Were they included in canon of Scripture, absolutely. If I were to take single verses out of the Bible, songs, poems or parables, I would NOT base my theology on one alone.
    Blessings,
    Lee

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us