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Thread: Predestination and freedom

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    I know that way of reading the bible, I believe the bible should be read as it is written not taking away from or as you are doing adding to it.

    I ask you again why do the freewill crowd preach as though THEY must go get people saved?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    I know that way of reading the bible, I believe the bible should be read as it is written not taking away from or as you are doing adding to it.

    I ask you again why do the freewill crowd preach as though THEY must go get people saved?


    Why not learn how to read for understanding before asking questions?

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    How is you do not understand, but instead of asking folks who do know you preach for doctrines what you neither know or have...you don't have faith, you preach doubt, you don't have assurance, you preach hit and miss salvation.

    Doubt and uncertainty are the substance of your doctrine...mine is faith and assurance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    How is you do not understand, but instead of asking folks who do know you preach for doctrines what you neither know or have...you don't have faith, you preach doubt, you don't have assurance, you preach hit and miss salvation.
    With respect to the request made by the Forum owner . . . . ignore button hit

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    You have never been able to stand before the Holy Ghost

    How many times we are exhorted to "have faith" or "fear not"...but you want people to fear much. John didn't say "these things are written that you might not know...but that ye might KNOW"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    I know that way of reading the bible, I believe the bible should be read as it is written not taking away from or as you are doing adding to it.

    I ask you again why do the freewill crowd preach as though THEY must go get people saved?
    We can save no one. All we must do is preach the gospel and those who hear the word will have faith and He will save them by His grace.


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    You have faith and grace in the wrong order.

    It's a funny old thing, I suppose inwardly faith is the first thing we are aware of with regard to the gospel...but a little diligent bible study reveals that before we had faith God extended His grace toward us...first He had mercy, then He extended the hand of grace, He preached His word and we believed it, and even this believing was His faith not ours.

    By GRACE are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves....lest any man should boast in God's presence.

    Aw they like to have a little boast don't they? they don't like thatGod should have all the glory. No no it was their obedience, their faithfulness, their holiness,
    because they stuck at it.

    It was THEIR golden calf which brought them up out of the land of Egypt...they were not in bondage they had freewill...they could turn and choose not to make bricks of straw whenever they liked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    What if we turn the truth into lie does it matter? isn't a lie just as good as the truth? you need words to make the lie same as you need words to make the truth and basically all words mean the same thing..don't they? why is it so important to establish the truth? why does the devil work so darn hard to get a lie accepted.

    This is the christian battleground, it is here that the battle of life is fought out...now if you are saved you will not lose your salvation, the devil knows that but he still has prizes worth fighting for.

    He can make us ineffectual in our ministry, he can make us unjoyful he can rob us of victory.


    These are all prizes well worth his fighting for...as you look around you might ask if he is being successful on a very large scale.

    The difference between the lie that we chose God and the truth that He chose us is as different as black is to white and as far apart as the east is to the west.

    One of these positions puts man in the driving position and the other puts God in the driving position. If you was the devil who would you rather was in the driving position?

    The statement of Jesus is perfectly straightforward and clear "You have not chosen Me but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should bear much fruit"...this is what is at stake, not salvation but fruit.

    No epistle ever begins with "thanks be unto God who has given us freewill by which we have been enabled to make a decision to accept Jesus Christ" it simply is not the language of the bible...always "God chose us and redeemed us by His own good will"

    Man has already chosen, he chose in the garden when he was surrounded by everything that was beautiful to the sight and good for food...in other word when he was in prosperity, this was [and is and always has been] God's good will for man while on this earth. Man chose to rebel and reject God's will....that is what it has always been about. Man chose poverty over abundance, sin over righteousness, bondage over freedom, death over life.

    That is man's present condition while he is unsaved. He is poor, he is a sinner, he is sick and dying [he is in fact already dead while he walks] and he is in bondage. He has no hope whatever.

    The only hope there is is that God will have mercy and grant life and pardon and liberty once more...YOU are saying man can decide this for himself, I say that is the talk of a rebel.
    TL,
    In John 15 that you have quoted, Jesus was talking specifically to his disciples in the present tense in preparation for His trial and crucifiction. In that context, He was speaking the Truth to them. If you continue to read in John from what we have as chapter 15 right on through Chapter 16, you will see Jesus leave the disciples and go for a time of private prayer to Father God in Chapter 17, when He finally mentions you and me in the latter part of that Chapter=prayer. Up until THAT time, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not to you and me specifically. It is wrong to take text out of context and apply it universally, unless it was intended universally, such as the 3rd Chapter of John. Please, read John in context. It is a wonderful Gospel presentation when one keeps it that way.

    And, you cannot find any reference to original sin of humanity being passed on to all of humanity. The one and only reference is taken out of context to make it fit Jean Cauvin's (John Calvin's real name) bent in keeping with his mentor of the 4th century Augustine of Hippo. Prior to Augustine, predestination and determinist philosophy was not a part of Biblical teaching and practice, EXCEPT by the Gnostics.

    Blessings,
    Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    We can save no one. All we must do is preach the gospel and those who hear the word will have faith and He will save them by His grace.
    You mean the righteous will hear and be turned to Christ once He has been explained to them as being what they have seen and thought that convinced them there was a God but they didn't know His Name, correct? So now they are made to be His disciples as Jesus commanded they become. I think I see the Great Commission being advanced in that.

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    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee52 View Post
    TL,
    In John 15 that you have quoted, Jesus was talking specifically to his disciples in the present tense in preparation for His trial and crucifiction. In that context, He was speaking the Truth to them. If you continue to read in John from what we have as chapter 15 right on through Chapter 16, you will see Jesus leave the disciples and go for a time of private prayer to Father God in Chapter 17, when He finally mentions you and me in the latter part of that Chapter=prayer. Up until THAT time, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not to you and me specifically. It is wrong to take text out of context and apply it universally, unless it was intended universally, such as the 3rd Chapter of John. Please, read John in context. It is a wonderful Gospel presentation when one keeps it that way.

    And, you cannot find any reference to original sin of humanity being passed on to all of humanity. The one and only reference is taken out of context to make it fit Jean Cauvin's (John Calvin's real name) bent in keeping with his mentor of the 4th century Augustine of Hippo. Prior to Augustine, predestination and determinist philosophy was not a part of Biblical teaching and practice, EXCEPT by the Gnostics.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    *
    Well you are the boys who are always belabouring us with "we must abide in Christ, we must bear fruit, we must love one another..."or we shall lose our salvation say you...so all the duties of John 14-17 [why start at 15] we must be scrupulous to do but all the grace and truth which make the being and the doing possible are only for the 12 and one of those a traitor.

    So the Holy Ghost the Comforter is only for the 12.

    I told you, didn't I tell you? you read too much the fathers [so called] didn't I tell you that? I told you that didn't I? did I say to you that you read too much the fathers [so called]? did I say they will lead you astray?

    I told you.

    When they teach you that the Lord's address in John 14-17 [why start at 15]? is only for the 12 holy and glorified apostles and one of them a traitor they are asserting the doctrine of the clergy, episcopalianism, two ranks and classes of christian, the elite and holy class and the common or garden class, that's you and me, so they suppose.

    Lovers of Jesus down through the centuries of time have loved and treasured this discourse of Jesus and clasped it to their bosom and made them their own .

    But suppose you for a moment that what the fathers [so called] assert is true, didn't I tell you that you read too much the fathers [so called]? I told you that. But suppose it is true for a moment, Jesus is the Vine and they were the branches, so there were only twelve branches one of these was the traitor so when God lopped him off there was only eleven...where is the glorious number 12 gone? for the fathers [so called] teach that they are the pillars upon which God's temple is builded, the magic 12 um...eleven, you say ah but they had a lottery and Mathias was chosen to take Judas place so the magic number was restored...once again the Vine has the requisite 12 branches...the magic 12. But then oops along comes Paul. Now there is the magic 13.

    But you say the apostles were chosen, you acknowledge [I suppose] that they did not choose Christ but Christ chose them and ordained them that they might bear much fruit...yet you seem to imply if we are to go forth and bear much fruit we must choose ourselves...it must be our choosing and deciding, we must pull ourselves somehow up by our bootstraps [and this is exactly how all you guys teach and preach] to reach the position of branches on the Vine...for you will acknowledge only branches can bear fruit and that only if they abide in the Vine.

    As for your assertion that sin did not enter the world through one man and death by sin and that death passed upon all men for that all men sinned I call to witness Paul for he said it did. Not only does Paul tell you but the history of the whole world tells you that all men sin from nature and all men die. Not only does the bible say and history say [for there has been no exceptions] but if you will go to the mirror and look therein you will see that YOU too are a sinner, your own nature witnesses against you.

    You never chose God, you chose sin as your father Adam did.
    Last edited by Totton Linnet; August 22nd, 2013 at 04:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    You have faith and grace in the wrong order.

    It's a funny old thing, I suppose inwardly faith is the first thing we are aware of with regard to the gospel...but a little diligent bible study reveals that before we had faith God extended His grace toward us...first He had mercy, then He extended the hand of grace, He preached His word and we believed it, and even this believing was His faith not ours.

    By GRACE are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves....lest any man should boast in God's presence.

    Aw they like to have a little boast don't they? they don't like thatGod should have all the glory. No no it was their obedience, their faithfulness, their holiness,
    because they stuck at it.

    It was THEIR golden calf which brought them up out of the land of Egypt...they were not in bondage they had freewill...they could turn and choose not to make bricks of straw whenever they liked.
    To whom is this directed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    You mean the righteous will hear and be turned to Christ once He has been explained to them as being what they have seen and thought that convinced them there was a God but they didn't know His Name, correct? So now they are made to be His disciples as Jesus commanded they become. I think I see the Great Commission being advanced in that.
    Put down the hash pipe and speak English.


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    TL,
    I read and re-read your last post. Neither time did it present a clear, concise, rational message. Is English not your primary language?

    You have misunderstood what I and CR and Iwannaknow have said about remaining in Christ Jesus by the doing of good works. Nobody can "LOSE" their salvation as the Reformed folks keep accusing us of saying.

    Again, NOBODY CAN LOSE SALVATION. I hope the capital letters make that clear. We are not saying anything of the kind.

    What we are saying is that people who become Christians, by choice, which is NOT a work of humans, it is merely a choice, the most important choice anyone can make, can also make a choice to abandon that faith in Jesus.

    God is still the God that extended the grace to us.

    Jesus is still the Son of God, the Word made flesh, to sacrifice Himself on our behalf to reconcile us to God the Father. Jesus, as fully human-fully God, died and through that defeated Satan's power over humanity and corruptibility of humanity and spiritual death of humanity.

    The Holy Spirit is still the power by which we are brought to Christ Jesus to be able to make our choice to accept or reject reconciliation to God.

    Satan, not God, is the author of sin. Satan brought sin to humanity. Adam and Eve gave in to that sin and thereby gave Satan the power of corruptibility and death over humanity. However, Adam's sin and Eve's sin are theirs alone. We did not inherit their sin, as Reformed doctrine teaches. Each of us is condemned for our own sins, not anyone elses. Those sins, like salvation in Christ, are choices we make as reasoning beings, created by God with free will choices.

    Now, please, if and when you respond, please try to carry on a clear conversation, without all of the confused, jumbled muriad of thoughts and disjointed tangents.

    Blessings,
    Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    To whom is this directed?
    YOU

    Put down the hash pipe and speak English.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee52 View Post
    TL,
    I read and re-read your last post. Neither time did it present a clear, concise, rational message. Is English not your primary language?

    You have misunderstood what I and CR and Iwannaknow have said about remaining in Christ Jesus by the doing of good works. Nobody can "LOSE" their salvation as the Reformed folks keep accusing us of saying.

    Again, NOBODY CAN LOSE SALVATION. I hope the capital letters make that clear. We are not saying anything of the kind.

    What we are saying is that people who become Christians, by choice, which is NOT a work of humans, it is merely a choice, the most important choice anyone can make, can also make a choice to abandon that faith in Jesus.

    God is still the God that extended the grace to us.

    Jesus is still the Son of God, the Word made flesh, to sacrifice Himself on our behalf to reconcile us to God the Father. Jesus, as fully human-fully God, died and through that defeated Satan's power over humanity and corruptibility of humanity and spiritual death of humanity.

    The Holy Spirit is still the power by which we are brought to Christ Jesus to be able to make our choice to accept or reject reconciliation to God.

    Satan, not God, is the author of sin. Satan brought sin to humanity. Adam and Eve gave in to that sin and thereby gave Satan the power of corruptibility and death over humanity. However, Adam's sin and Eve's sin are theirs alone. We did not inherit their sin, as Reformed doctrine teaches. Each of us is condemned for our own sins, not anyone elses. Those sins, like salvation in Christ, are choices we make as reasoning beings, created by God with free will choices.

    Now, please, if and when you respond, please try to carry on a clear conversation, without all of the confused, jumbled muriad of thoughts and disjointed tangents.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    I don't doubt that many of those who "choose of their own freewill" to become christian subsequently "choose of their own freewill" to become unchristian again...that is why I contend with you with such dogmatism. I doesn't BELIEVE in this freewill salvation...why?

    Because the bible knows nothing about it.

    That's where the mess IS in the church, that's why folk foul up and bring disgrace and heartache to themselves and to everybody else. They are invited to the front and led to mumble a prayer and counselled that they are now saved...even though no work has been done in them by the Holy Ghost, no forgiveness of sin has taken place, no new birth, they are not made new creatures in Christ Jesus.

    They came to the front but they never came to Jesus.

    And I am not saying nobody gets saved in the altar call many do and many do not but ALL are counselled that they have mumbled the right prayer therefore they must believe, believe, believe...even though no saving work took place.

    These are the ones who "choose" to be saved. I wot well you do not understand, this is a different lingo to yours. This my ol' mucker is the language of the reformation.

    For the first 350 years of the reformation there was no such an institution as the altar call...there was no nicely formulated sinner's prayer to mumble...I am not saying nobody cried out in an agony of soul to the Lord to save them or whispered their first breathings of love to the Lord and earnestly desired that He might come take up His abode with them. But that was the direct result of the convincing, convicting , IRresistable power of the Holy Ghost working upon them as a result of the faithful preaching of the gospel.

    The like has long since passed from the church...but God is gracious, God is merciful and kind, He will have a people.

    This thing is all according to the gospel message which is preached, whether it be the gospel of the reformation or the more modern freewill gospel of Arminianism. What I am contending for is a thourough going work to be done in the heart, a soul cleansing work, a transforming work where the one who is the subject of it is thouroughly saved, thouroughly born again and thouroughly changed...a new creation.

    This christian does NOT subsequently "choose" to become unsaved, unchristian again as soon as the novelty and excitement of the "hour of decision" is over WHY? because the work was wholly done by the Holy Spirit, and it was a work done in eternity, they didn't join the church they recieved everlasting life.

    I also acknowledge that many of those who "choose" to become christians do at a later time come into a more steadfast and real experience of the Holy Spirit.
    Last edited by Totton Linnet; August 23rd, 2013 at 10:33 AM.
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    And don't tell me that you didn't understand that it is nonsense to say that God chose the apostles and ordained them that they might bear much fruit but that He expects that we will choose ourselves and ordain ourselves if we are to bear any fruit at all. You understood it but you didn't like it.

    Incidently these are only the opening skirmishes of a subject which is HUGE both in it's impact on the church and it's impact on the individual christian.

    And I contest that it is THIS matter which has resulted in the present condition of the church today. It is the THROWING OUT by the church of the precious doctrines of predestination and election and God's sovereignty and the gospel of free grace.

    You can't throw doctrines out of the bible not without consequences.
    Last edited by Totton Linnet; August 24th, 2013 at 04:43 AM.
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