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Thread: Predestination and freedom

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    Predestination and freedom

    We have heard that because God predestined us this makes us robots, I say it sets us gloriously FREE.

    When God first created man He did not come and say please, He did not curtsy, He did not even enter into negotiations. That's what I love about God, He goes right ahead and does what He wants to.

    The golden key to enjoying God is TRUST, believing that He really does know best, what is best for us. He knows that better than we know it ourselves.

    Because God did not curtsy or enter into negotiations with us, He did not ask anybody how many toes they would like does not and has not made any man a robot.

    If God did not feel constrained in any way to seek our permission or approval when He of His free sovereign grace decided to grant us natural life, what in the world makes you to imagine that He would need seek our permission or approval when He grants by free sovereign grace spiritual life?

    The world is locked up in freewill which is not free at all but in bondage to sin and death. Christ sets us FREE from that...it is exactly that which was leading us ever forward to death, and judgement.

    Alas! the vast majority of the church having been SET FREE from what? from themselves [freewill which is bondage] and free from devil. Very soon after take back unto themselves the delusion [for so it is] of freewill.

    THAT is what is wrong with the church. It is backsliding. We had submitted to the Lord an to seeking HIS WILL, but now we fallen back again to that which got us into trouble in the first place. [I assure that this is the
    very cause of a great deal of the sorrows and trials and hardships that christians are in]
    God's will for us is PERFECT FREEDOM for then we are the very person we are created to be. And we will be like Jesus, for that is what we are predestined to be.

    *
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    If God did not feel constrained in any way to seek our permission or approval when He of His free sovereign grace decided to grant us natural life, what in the world makes you to imagine that He would need seek our permission or approval when He grants by free sovereign grace spiritual life?
    Who says He needs to “seek our approval”? God chose to make creatures who can be humble and contrite or who can be proud and unrepentant. God chooses to have conditions to enter His grace. He wasn’t obligated to do that, of course, but that’s what Scripture teaches He actually did.

    The world is locked up in freewill which is not free at all but in bondage to sin and death. Christ sets us FREE from that...it is exactly that which was leading us ever forward to death, and judgement.
    Obviously, even the most wicked can humble themselves and repent of their wickedness. Demonstrating humility and repentance does not mean one is not “in bondage to sin and death”; it’s an acknowledgement that one IS in bondage. And Scripture says that God will hear the prayers of such and have mercy on them. God will then open their hearts to the gospel and Christ will set them free from the bondage of sin and death.

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    Silver Member Totton Linnet's Avatar
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    The usual contradictions from freewillers, you do not seem to understand words or what it is you affirm. for example grace means without merit, so you say in one breath [as is usual with freewillers] God chooses to to have conditions and merits in order to enter His unmerited grace, if you say humility [which itself is a God given grace] is a condition then salvation would no longer be by grace but reward for being humble.

    Free gift is another word you do not understand, you cannot deny that the bible says salvation is a free gift, but you say once again that contrition is neccesary, therefore the gift is no longer free but a reccompence for contrition..

    You say that man in bondage [what does the word bondage mean?] are able to repent and be humble, why then does it never occur apart from the preaching of the gospel? Why did no Red Indians humble themselves and repent before the Europeans arrived?

    Paul always sets himself forward as an example, I concede he was humble when he was saved, that's because God knocked him off his high horse, I think a great many people need to be knocked off their high horses and God can do it.

    But whether He always works in so demonstrable a fashion [for Paul far from being contrite and humble was in the heat of rebellion] God ALWAYS does do that initial work to bring men and women to repentance and faith.

    It is the work of the Holy Spirit which convinces the world of sin and righteousness, not man's humility or repentance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    …God chooses to to have conditions and merits in order to enter His unmerited grace
    I didn’t say God chooses to have “merits.” You added that word. I said God chooses to have conditions to enter His grace. So, please don’t add to my words so you can look like you’ve got a point to make. Furthermore, conditions are not necessarily merits. And, by the way, I’m not the one who created things to be this way, God did. It’s in Scripture, so I believe it. “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise” (Psalm 51:17). “But to this one I will look, to him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word” (Isaiah 66:2).

    if you say humility [which itself is a God given grace]
    Yep. Every good thing is from God. God has given every person the ability to be humble.

    is a condition then salvation would no longer be by grace but reward for being humble.
    I don’t think you understand what the definition of genuine humility is. It’s realizing you have no merits within yourself to offer. It’s evidence you deserve anything but a reward. And even if you still think it’s some kind of “good work” that warrants a reward (which it’s not), God has told us in Scripture that the one who is humble and contrite of spirit is the one who’ll get His attention (i.e. grace, in general, not necessarily saving grace). I believe Scripture.

    Free gift is another word you do not understand, you cannot deny that the bible says salvation is a free gift, but you say once again that contrition is neccesary, therefore the gift is no longer free but a reccompence for contrition..
    One can’t make one’s heart soft by one’s own effort. A soft heart is simply the God-given result of contrition. The transformation to a soft heart as a result of contrition is not the free gift, it’s simply a reality built into creation by God Himself. Believing the gospel is the free gift. Only God can open one’s heart to believe the gospel. That’s the free gift. If one’s heart is soft, God will open one’s heart to believe the gospel (i.e. free gift). If one resists the conviction of the Holy Spirit, one’s heart will remain hard.

    One is not rewarded for having a soft heart. It’s just that God can open soft hearts to believe the gospel. Soft hearts are in a position to receive the gospel. Closed hands can’t grasp onto anything offered.

    You say that man in bondage [what does the word bondage mean?] are able to repent and be humble, why then does it never occur apart from the preaching of the gospel?...
    No man repented before AD 30-33? Didn’t King David repent? How did he do that if he never heard the gospel of Christ that we hear today?

    Paul always sets himself forward as an example, I concede he was humble when he was saved, that's because God knocked him off his high horse, I think a great many people need to be knocked off their high horses and God can do it.
    Yep. That’s the conviction of the Holy Spirit who is convicting the world.

    It is the work of the Holy Spirit which convinces the world of sin and righteousness, not man's humility or repentance.
    Clearly. The Holy Spirit convicts and man either repents or resists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surrender View Post
    I didn’t say God chooses to have “merits.” You added that word. I said God chooses to have conditions to enter His grace. So, please don’t add to my words so you can look like you’ve got a point to make. Furthermore, conditions are not necessarily merits. And, by the way, I’m not the one who created things to be this way, God did. It’s in Scripture, so I believe it. “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise” (Psalm 51:17). “But to this one I will look, to him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word” (Isaiah 66:2).
    *
    No no, you are not thinking about what words actually mean, you are treating scripture as some kind of prose to be savoured and rolled on the tongue. Humility is a grace, contrition is a condition it is in recognition of this grace and condition on our part you are saying God grants salvation.

    The only condition the bible ever gives is FAITH and that it specifically say "not of yourselves, lest any flesh should boast in God's presence"

    Yup every good thing is from God. God has given every person the ability to be humble.

    Humankind since the fall is just as proud as peacocks, I accept there some who are by nature meek. Whatever graces God placed in mankind is gone'a'gone. People are nice [Totty loves people] but they sure are not good.
    Paul said "I know that in myself, that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing"
    Jesus said "If you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children"


    I don’t think you understand what the definition of genuine humility is. It’s realizing you have no merits within yourself to offer. It’s evidence you deserve anything but a reward. And even if you still think it’s some kind of “good work” that warrants a reward (which it’s not), God has told us in Scripture that the one who is humble and contrite of spirit is the one who’ll get His attention (i.e. grace, in general, not necessarily saving grace). I believe Scripture.
    But you keep asaying that you DO have this wonderful merit of humility...the fact that people say "I am humble" might indicate rather that they are really proud as peacocks

    One can’t make one’s heart soft by one’s own effort. A soft heart is simply the God-given result of contrition. The transformation to a soft heart as a result of contrition is not the free gift, it’s simply a reality built into creation by God Himself. Believing the gospel is the free gift. Only God can open one’s heart to believe the gospel. That’s the free gift. If one’s heart is soft, God will open one’s heart to believe the gospel (i.e. free gift). If one resists the conviction of the Holy Spirit, one’s heart will remain hard.

    Now we're talking the same language, it's all God working IN US to do of His good pleasure...it is VITAL for us to keep this right up front in our thinking and in our speech, the reason why it is vial is a major topic on it's own. It is more than just a nicety, it is a golden key in how we walk with the Lord.

    One is not rewarded for having a soft heart. It’s just that God can open soft hearts to believe the gospel. Soft hearts are in a position to receive the gospel. Closed hands can’t grasp onto anything offered.

    Oh, now we are back to us.

    No man repented before AD 30-33? Didn’t King David repent? How did he do that if he never heard the gospel of Christ that we hear today?

    David was as proud as a peacock in regard to his sin, killed one of his most loyal servants so that he could have his wife. Nathan the prophet could not have presented him with a clearer picture of what he had done. And the great King was full of righteous indignation until Nathan said "YOU, you are the very man" has God ever dealt in like fashion with you? I know He has me, you just feel as the sky fell in on you...yes that will bring conviction...it is all God working in mercy and grace.

    Why not give Him all the glory?

    Yep. That’s the conviction of the Holy Spirit who is convicting the world.

    Great, we're back in agreement...you know there is a common saying among free grace believers and it is this..."when freewillers preach they are freewillers, but when they kneel to pray they are free gracers. Nobody says "Oh God I thank You that I am so humble"

    Clearly. The Holy Spirit convicts and man either repents or resists.
    I think when God has predestined He also chooses, and calls, and justifies, and glorifies. He is IRresistable.

    But His enemies will resist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    Humility is a grace, contrition is a condition it is in recognition of this grace and condition on our part you are saying God grants salvation.
    No, that’s not what I’m saying. Maybe you should read my post again.

    The only condition the bible ever gives is FAITH and that it specifically say "not of yourselves, lest any flesh should boast in God's presence"
    God opens the heart to have faith in the gospel.

    Humankind since the fall is just as proud as peacocks, I accept there some who are by nature meek. Whatever graces God placed in mankind is gone'a'gone. People are nice [Totty loves people] but they sure are not good.
    Paul said "I know that in myself, that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing"
    Jesus said "If you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children"
    Being ashamed of “being bad” is not “being good.” Every person has the ability to recognize they “are bad” because God made it so everyone could develop a conscience.

    But you keep asaying that you DO have this wonderful merit of humility...the fact that people say "I am humble" might indicate rather that they are really proud as peacocks
    I never said I was humble. Only God decides that.

    David was as proud as a peacock in regard to his sin,
    And David repented and was a man after God’s own heart.

    Why not give Him all the glory?
    How does God not get all the glory? Without the conviction of the Holy Spirit, we’d remain in our prideful state.

    He is IRresistable.
    When the Father chooses to open your heart to the gospel of Christ, yes, He is irresistible. But one can resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit before that opening.

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    Isaiah says "we have turned everyone to our own way" that is freewill, it is the bane of humanity far from being free our will says Paul is in bondage, we can will what is right but we have not the power to perform.

    Peter says that we have been returned to the Great Shepherd of our souls.

    The great alas is that after we are saved we are soon taught to fall back to "freewill" discipleship, it is not acceptable to God. Paul tells us to seek God's perfect will for our lives.

    Look with your eyes and SEE if there is no problem in the church...I say that this the root and cause of it.

    Luther spent his life fighting freewill doctrine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    Isaiah says "we have turned everyone to our own way" that is freewill, it is the bane of humanity far from being free our will says Paul is in bondage, we can will what is right but we have not the power to perform.

    Peter says that we have been returned to the Great Shepherd of our souls.

    The great alas is that after we are saved we are soon taught to fall back to "freewill" discipleship, it is not acceptable to God. Paul tells us to seek God's perfect will for our lives.

    Look with your eyes and SEE if there is no problem in the church...I say that this the root and cause of it.

    Luther spent his life fighting freewill doctrine.
    Outside of the Body of Christ, one is not predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, to be holy and blameless, to be justified, and to be glorified. Until one stops resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit and repents of their ways (i.e. freewill to repent, freewill to resist), God will not open one's heart to the gospel of Christ (i.e. irresistible grace) and one will not be predestined for any of these things.

    "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51). Jesus asked these men to repent. Jesus did not ask them to do something they were incapable of doing. God does not punish people for not doing something they are incapable of doing.

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    The only natural lives God is directly responsible for granting are those of Adam and Eve.


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    Quote Originally Posted by surrender View Post
    Outside of the Body of Christ, one is not predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, to be holy and blameless, to be justified, and to be glorified. Until one stops resisting the conviction of the Holy Spirit and repents of their ways (i.e. freewill to repent, freewill to resist), God will not open one's heart to the gospel of Christ (i.e. irresistible grace) and one will not be predestined for any of these things.

    "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51). Jesus asked these men to repent. Jesus did not ask them to do something they were incapable of doing. God does not punish people for not doing something they are incapable of doing.
    Jesus never at any time "asked" nor does the bible, God does not need to curtsy to any man.

    Freewill is a mindset, it is the way the preacher thinks when he is preaching and it is the way, the mindset with which people respond to that message mindset. The bible is "God hath commanded all men everywhere to repent" the very fact that it is framed as an invitation is a falling short both in the messenger and the message and those who receive the message do not come all the way into the fulness of salvation that they ought.

    I am not saying that God is not extremely merciful and that freewillers are not saved, I've never said that. I AM saying that they are not saved like what they oughtta be and they do not get the Holy Spirit like what they oughtta have gotten Him.

    It is a backslidden kind of evangelism and brings forth a backslidden [from the outset] kind of christian experience.

    LOOK with your eyes and SEE if there is not a problem in the church, Imma saying that this is it, the root and cause of it.

    And why do you argue with God? Jesus said to those stiffnecked opponents "you cannot hear My voice because you are not My sheep...you are of your father the devil and his works you will do."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    Jesus never at any time "asked" nor does the bible, God does not need to curtsy to any man.
    God tells them to repent over and over again (Mat. 3:2; 4:17; Mark 6:12; Luke 5:32; Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 17:30; 26:20; Rom. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Rev. 2:5). God doesn’t ask people to do things they can’t do and then punish them for not doing it. That’s absurd.

    The bible is "God hath commanded all men everywhere to repent" the very fact that it is framed as an invitation is a falling short…
    I’m not saying God doesn’t “command” but we also see God pleading: “Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God” (2 Cor. 5:20).

    I AM saying that they are not saved like what they oughtta be and they do not get the Holy Spirit like what they oughtta have gotten Him.
    The gospel was initially presented to me from a Calvinist. Now, years later, that I recognize man’s part in his relationship with God (i.e. freewill), the Holy Spirit that came upon me at my conversion has backed off? Oh brother! Now I’ve heard everything. I can’t believe what man comes up with to put himself above another. I see it all the time on these boards. “I’ve got more Holy Spirit than you, because I speak in tongues.” “Well, I’ve got more Holy Spirit than you, because I’m a Calvinist.” “Well, I’ve got more Holy Spirit than you, because I’m actually following all the commands of Jesus (i.e. give all your money to the poor, don’t buy insurance of any kind, etc.)”. And so on it goes…blah, blah, blah. The rampant, blatant arrogance among believers makes me sick to my stomach.

    LOOK with your eyes and SEE if there is not a problem in the church, Imma saying that this is it, the root and cause of it.
    I agree there's a problem. There's been a problem since the Corinthian church. The root cause of it is sin, my friend. Same old story. And your pride (“I’ve got more Holy Spirit than you”) isn’t helping.

    And why do you argue with God? Jesus said to those stiffnecked opponents "you cannot hear My voice because you are not My sheep...you are of your father the devil and his works you will do."
    Who’s arguing with God? I believe the Word. They are not His sheep, because they have resisted the conviction of the Holy Spirit and are not humble and contrite of heart. God knows who are His (i.e. those who are humble and contrite of spirit) and those who are not His (i.e. those who resist the Holy Spirit). Those who are His will hear the voice of Jesus and be saved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surrender View Post
    God tells them to repent over and over again (Mat. 3:2; 4:17; Mark 6:12; Luke 5:32; Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 17:30; 26:20; Rom. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Rev. 2:5). God doesn’t ask people to do things they can’t do and then punish them for not doing it. That’s absurd.

    The very purpose of God in giving the law was to SHOW that people can never achieve the requirements of it, can never achieve the required righteousness that God demands. In coming to that place of helplessless God's hope for us is that we would cry to Him for the neccesary grace. The picture I see is the paryletic to whom the command comes "arise and walk"

    I'm not saying God doesn’t “command” but we also see God pleading: “Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God” (2 Cor. 5:20).

    To be reconciled to God is to be reconciled to His will, His way, if you are walking in your own "freewill" you are not reconciled like what you ought to be.

    The gospel was initially presented to me from a Calvinist. Now, years later, that I recognize man’s part in his relationship with God (i.e. freewill), the Holy Spirit that came upon me at my conversion has backed off? Oh brother! Now I’ve heard everything. I can’t believe what man comes up with to put himself above another. I see it all the time on these boards. “I’ve got more Holy Spirit than you, because I speak in tongues.” “Well, I’ve got more Holy Spirit than you, because I’m a Calvinist.” “Well, I’ve got more Holy Spirit than you, because I’m actually following all the commands of Jesus (i.e. give all your money to the poor, don’t buy insurance of any kind, etc.)”. And so on it goes…blah, blah, blah. The rampant, blatant arrogance among believers makes me sick to my stomach.

    Whether in the bible or in the life of the world you see around you and the life of the church which you see with your own eyes it is EVIDENT that not all are walking with Lord as they ought to be walking, not all are walking in the fulness of the Holy Ghost that is available to them.

    There are some common factors, one, I see the reverence with which christians treat God's word, two, I see the awful struggles so MANY christians are in, the hard trials.

    There are trials which come from being faithful and diligent and their trials which come from being UNfaithful and spiritually lazy.

    You'll KNOW if you are walking aright with the Lord...and I am not speaking about perfection.

    I agree there's a problem. There's been a problem since the Corinthian church. The root cause of it is sin, my friend. Same old story. And your pride (“I’ve got more Holy Spirit than you”) isn’t helping.

    The most serious problems with the Corinthian church was factions, following after men. But Paul said that it was neccesary [if regrettable] so that those who were true should stand forth.

    And it is not me who is boasting about my great humility and my heart wringing contrition with which I somehow helped God to saved me. I boast only in the Lord.

    Who’s arguing with God? I believe the Word. They are not His sheep, because they have resisted the conviction of the Holy Spirit and are not humble and contrite of heart. God knows who are His (i.e. those who are humble and contrite of spirit) and those who are not His (i.e. those who resist the Holy Spirit). Those who are His will hear the voice of Jesus and be saved.
    Cart before the horse [in the good ol' free will way] they resisted because they were not His sheep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    The very purpose of God in giving the law was to SHOW that people can never achieve the requirements of it, can never achieve the required righteousness that God demands.
    I’m not sure I’d put it that way. The purpose of the law was to come to know sin intimately (Romans 7:7) and to make sin utterly sinful (Romans 7:13).

    In coming to that place of helplessless God's hope for us is that we would cry to Him for the neccesary grace. The picture I see is the paryletic to whom the command comes "arise and walk"
    Exactly! God’s “hope” for us. God has made it so any man can come to that place. If God did not, then He would have to condemn people for not doing what they were incapable of doing.

    To be reconciled to God is to be reconciled to His will, His way, if you are walking in your own "freewill" you are not reconciled like what you ought to be.
    If you choose to walk in the lusts of your flesh, you are not submitting to God’s will for your life. If you submit to God through a repentant heart, God will give you His Spirit so you can walk in the Spirit. Without the Spirit, our will always chooses self, so our walk is continually, “Not my will, but Your will be done.”

    Whether in the bible or in the life of the world you see around you and the life of the church which you see with your own eyes it is EVIDENT that not all are walking with Lord as they ought to be walking, not all are walking in the fulness of the Holy Ghost that is available to them.
    I agree.

    There are some common factors, one, I see the reverence with which christians treat God's word,
    And you’ve made it clear that those who recognize that Scripture affirms freewill treat God’s Word with irreverence and thus do not have the fullness of the Spirit. I think that’s completely arrogant.

    their trials which come from being UNfaithful and spiritually lazy.
    Now, you’ve hit upon the genuine reason for the lack of fullness of the Spirit, sin.

    And it is not me who is boasting about my great humility and my heart wringing contrition with which I somehow helped God to saved me. I boast only in the Lord.
    Did God “hope” you would cry out to him for grace? Did you or did you not humble yourself before God and cry out to Him?

    … they resisted because they were not His sheep.
    Yep. That’s what Scripture teaches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surrender View Post
    I’m not sure I’d put it that way. The purpose of the law was to come to know sin intimately (Romans 7:7) and to make sin utterly sinful (Romans 7:13).

    Exactly! God’s “hope” for us. God has made it so any man can come to that place. If God did not, then He would have to condemn people for not doing what they were incapable of doing.

    Here is your blind spot, the bible says that all sinned in Adam, now you might not like it, I think God knows better. Every man who was ever born [bar One] was in Adam's loins when he chose to rebel, and I have never said mankind did not choose or that he was not free to choose. Having chosen to rebel, and YOU chose with him that choice is already made, man is not a creature whose sin is in the future or his failure or his doom it is past and present.

    I did not say I fully comprehend how that when Adam sinned I sinned, we are not to go by our understanding we are to go by "thus saith the Lord." Now that we have chosen we are no longer free.

    We exchanged freedom for bondage....that's why Jesus set us free
    We exchanged good for evil, abundance for poverty, life for death and sickness is part of it.
    We exchange blessing for a curse.

    We no longer have any options, we have sinned and we must die for our sins, nay we are already dead.

    Explain how a dead man or woman has freewill, the bible says while we were YET sinners Christ died for the ungodly...yet you say it was your freewill. When we were DEAD, slain in trespasses and sins Christ died for us.

    What then? but when God sent the gospel message to you along with it He sent His holy Spirit to set you free and to as Paul says QUICKEN you [that means bring to life] while you were dead, slain in trespasses and sins.

    Salvation is all of God, you say "but we respond" and I say that God in His day of power is totally unresistible



    If you choose to walk in the lusts of your flesh, you are not submitting to God’s will for your life. If you submit to God through a repentant heart, God will give you His Spirit so you can walk in the Spirit. Without the Spirit, our will always chooses self, so our walk is continually, “Not my will, but Your will be done.”

    I agree.

    I'm glad you agree, but you keep saying that you are walking, not in God's will but your own "freewill" don't you know that this is what got you into trouble in the first place.

    Jesus said to Peter in essence that the human will is opposed to God and so it is.


    And you’ve made it clear that those who recognize that Scripture affirms freewill treat God’s Word with irreverence and thus do not have the fullness of the Spirit. I think that’s completely arrogant.

    The bible everywhere speaks about God sovereign and man's will which is in bondage and opposed, at emnity with Him.
    There is not a single scripture where God bestowed upon any man freewill, not one in all the bible.

    Now, you’ve hit upon the genuine reason for the lack of fullness of the Spirit, sin.

    Actually it isn't so, once again you have the cart before the horse, it is because we walk not in the Spirit that we fulfil the lusts or desires of the flesh.[ for desires of the flesh read freewill]

    Did God “hope” you would cry out to him for grace? Did you or did you not humble yourself before God and cry out to Him?

    God' hoping is as far different from man's hoping as His faith is different from our faith, you talk about being humble and humbling ourselves, do you know what it is?....it is believing God's word even when it contradicts our own understanding. People say "I love God....." but I detect a lack of awe and reverence to His word, nobody will ever love God more than they love His word.

    Yep. That’s what Scripture teaches.
    Ah here you DID reverence God's word, you did not deny but you admitted that some there are who are God;s sheep who hear His word and some there are who do not hear His word because they are not His sheep.
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/blog.php?u=10603

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    …Salvation is all of God, you say "but we respond" and I say that God in His day of power is totally unresistible
    Yes, while I was dead in sin, I cried out to God, helpless and desperate. I didn’t cry out to God helpless and desperate AFTER He took my sins away and washed me clean (i.e. regeneration), for I was no longer helpless and desperate AFTER He regenerated me.

    I'm glad you agree, but you keep saying that you are walking, not in God's will but your own "freewill" don't you know that this is what got you into trouble in the first place.

    Jesus said to Peter in essence that the human will is opposed to God and so it is.
    I never said I do this on my own without God.

    The bible everywhere speaks about God sovereign and man's will which is in bondage and opposed, at emnity with Him.
    There is not a single scripture where God bestowed upon any man freewill, not one in all the bible.
    I’m not saying we can will ourselves to be holy.

    Actually it isn't so, once again you have the cart before the horse, it is because we walk not in the Spirit that we fulfil the lusts or desires of the flesh.[ for desires of the flesh read freewill]

    God' hoping is as far different from man's hoping as His faith is different from our faith, you talk about being humble and humbling ourselves, do you know what it is?....it is believing God's word even when it contradicts our own understanding. People say "I love God....." but I detect a lack of awe and reverence to His word, nobody will ever love God more than they love His word.
    So, you agree that God hoped you would cry out to Him and you agree that you humbled yourself before Him.

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