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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Are the book of the living and the Book of Life the same book?
    I believe so. A number of translations render the verse "Book of Life" instead of "book of the living." For example:

    Psalm 69:28 NASB May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    There are multiple books that will be opened on Judgement Day. (Revelation 20:12)
    The verse shows that unlike the Book of Life, the other books only contain a record of the works of the unrighteous dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    There is a list of names written in "book of the living" (Psalm 69:28)
    that are not necessarily written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

    IOW's, there is a book of all created, and another book of all re-created spiritually through the righteousness, grace, and power of the "Lamb" Jesus Christ.
    On what scriptural basis do you believe they are two different books? If they are two different books, why are names blotted out of both?
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    Surely if believers are automatically guaranteed eternal life whatever they do after they are saved (even perhaps subsequently deciding they wanted nothing of Christ at all) then that is a whole lot of settling?
    That is only one thing that is settled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    If they are two different books, why are names blotted out of both?
    Where is it stated, other than the verse you quoted, that names are blotted out of the Book of Life?


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    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post


    On what scriptural basis do you believe they are two different books? If they are two different books, why are names blotted out of both?
    Names are not blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life. Rev. 3:5

    This is a promise to the redeemed in Christ, from Christ.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Where is it stated, other than the verse you quoted, that names are blotted out of the Book of Life?
    Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Names are not blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life. Rev. 3:5
    According to Revelation 22:19 and Psalm 69:28, people can be removed from the Book of Life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    This is a promise to the redeemed in Christ, from Christ.
    Every living soul starts out in the Book of Life.
    Those who do not believe the gospel will be blotted out.
    Those who believe the gospel will not be blotted out.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    That is only one thing that is settled.
    Do you say that each believer will be saved regardless of what he does or believes subsequent to his conversion or do you say that God ensures he will remain faithful and never want to leave the sheepfold? Or perhaps something else?
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    Every living soul starts out in the Book of Life.
    Those who do not believe the gospel will be blotted out.
    Those who believe the gospel will not be blotted out.
    Scripture?

    According to Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 there are names that were never written in the Book of Life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    Do you say that each believer will be saved regardless of what he does or believes subsequent to his conversion or do you say that God ensures he will remain faithful and never want to leave the sheepfold? Or perhaps something else?
    Simply being a believer means nothing; even the demons believe...

    One who is indwelt with Christ will never lose that; Jesus will never let us go. God will remain faithful, even if we do not.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post

    Scripture?
    It's implicit. Why would the wicked be in the book needing to be blotted out if they didn't start out in the book? If a person is added to the book and then blotted out for cause, it implies salvation can be lost. Not so if everyone starts out in the book.

    All little children are in the Book of Life. They are God's heritage, so logically they must be written in the book. When they grow up, many will not believe the gospel, and for that reason they are blotted out of the the book. Some will believe the gospel, and for that reason they overcome the world and will never be blotted out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    According to Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 there are names that were never written in the Book of Life.
    "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

    "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

    Their names are not written in the book because they were blotted out. Do you think salvation can be lost? If not, then those scriptures must mean they were blotted out, not never written in.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Exodus 32:33 ..."Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

    Implicit in that statement is that every person starts out written in His book.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    It's implicit. Why would the wicked be in the book needing to be blotted out if they didn't start out in the book? If a person is added to the book and then blotted out for cause, it implies salvation can be lost. Not so if everyone starts out in the book.
    That particular verse doesn't state that any names will be blotted out. It is a promise that names will not be blotted out.

    All little children are in the Book of Life. They are God's heritage, so logically they must be written in the book. When they grow up, many will not believe the gospel, and for that reason they are blotted out of the the book. Some will believe the gospel, and for that reason they overcome the world and will never be blotted out.
    Scripture?

    "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
    And?

    "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
    And?

    Their names are not written in the book because they were blotted out. Do you think salvation can be lost? If not, then those scriptures must mean they were blotted out, not never written in.
    Can you back that up with anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    Exodus 32:33 ..."Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

    Implicit in that statement is that every person starts out written in His book.
    No it isn't. That only implies that people can be blotted out of that specific book, it never implies anyone is written in when they are born, or before.

    It also doesn't show that to be the Book of Life.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    That particular verse doesn't state that any names will be blotted out. It is a promise that names will not be blotted out.
    Brother, I have already established that names will be taken out of the book of life. I cited Revelation 22:19. Use that particular verse that states that they will taken out of the book of life and explain why. Answer the following questions in your own words:

    Why is a person's name written in the Book of Life?
    Why is a person's name blotted out of the Book of Life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Scripture?
    Any scripture against what I've claimed? I have to prove to you that children are the heritage of the LORD? I have to prove to you that some children grow up and believe and some grow up and don't believe? Seriously?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    And?
    You brought up the verse. I posted the text. You've never proved it means what you claim it means, i.e. that some people have never been written in the book of life. It appears like you are building an argument against eternal security.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    And?
    Again, you brought up the verse. I posted the text. In both cases I posted the full texts of the verse you made a claim about, then I made an argument against what you claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Can you back that up with anything?
    What do I have to back up? It's common sense. You have people being added to a book for some reason and then blotted out for some reason. Once you explain why you think people are added and blotted out, I believe it will be apparent that your position makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    No it isn't. That only implies that people can be blotted out of that specific book, it never implies anyone is written in when they are born, or before.
    It implies that people are blotted out of God's book, which is elsewhere identified as the book of life, for sinning against God. If you imagine people are added to the book of life for a reason and then are blotted out for a reason, you are imagining the loss of salvation. You are also necessarily imagining unborn children are not written in the book of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    It also doesn't show that to be the Book of Life.
    How many books do think God blots people out of?
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

  16. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    Brother, I have already established that names will be taken out of the book of life. I cited Revelation 22:19. Use that particular verse that states that they will taken out of the book of life and explain why.
    Why should I need to explain why? I was referring to a verse that states certain names would not be blotted out, and stated that said verse only states such.

    Answer the following questions in your own words:

    Why is a person's name written in the Book of Life?
    Why is a person's name blotted out of the Book of Life?
    What does this have to do with what I was talking about?

    Any scripture against what I've claimed? I have to prove to you that children are the heritage of the LORD? I have to prove to you that some children grow up and believe and some grow up and don't believe? Seriously?
    I'm asking for Scripture that states the names of all who come into this life are written in the Book of Life. That is the claim for which I want to see verses.

    You brought up the verse. I posted the text. You've never proved it means what you claim it means, i.e. that some people have never been written in the book of life. It appears like you are building an argument against eternal security.
    What part of "...whose names were not written in the book..." are you having a hard time with? It doesn't read, "...whose names were blotted out..."

    If you think my argument is against eternal security you're blind.

    Again, you brought up the verse. I posted the text. In both cases I posted the full texts of the verse you made a claim about, then I made an argument against what you claimed.
    And your argument is a failure.

    What do I have to back up? It's common sense. You have people being added to a book for some reason and then blotted out for some reason. Once you explain why you think people are added and blotted out, I believe it will be apparent that your position makes no sense.
    I don't believe anyone is blotted out.

    It implies that people are blotted out of God's book, which is elsewhere identified as the book of life, for sinning against God. If you imagine people are added to the book of life for a reason and then are blotted out for a reason, you are imagining the loss of salvation. You are also necessarily imagining unborn children are not written in the book of life.
    The Book of Life is that of the Lamb, not the Father.

    How many books do think God blots people out of?


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  18. #29
    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post

    One who is indwelt with Christ will never lose that; Jesus will never let us go. God will remain faithful, even if we do not.
    I think I can accept a belief that God will never let a person go from salvation, even though I disagree with it. It is a very positive belief. However, in terms of openness theology, I would refrain from saying that the future is therefore and to that extent settled. After all, God can be faithful in many things, not only in the matter of the believer's assurance. Assuming your OSAS doctrine is true, (I'm not saying it is but let's assume so,) the future is still dependent on God's faithfulness - it is not an absolute future that is dependent on nothing at all. It is that absolute future, that the Calvinists speak of - the one decreed by God - or the one the Arminians teach - where God knows it all in advance as some sort of mystical certainty that they are never prepared to explain - it is that absolute future that I abhor because it deprives the world of the life that God gave it.

    I'm all for God's faithfulness of course. But it does seem (e.g. Hebrews 6: 4-8) that some people can fall away from faith. We all know of such people, sometimes even close to us. Calvin was at a loss to explain this phenomenon in the face of his 'perseverance of the saints' because 'perseverance of the saints' was a facet of the closed future that he advocated. Similarly, I think OSAS does the same thing, closing the future. But if you predicate it on God's faithfulness then the future is not settled in the same sense. God can be faithful but that doesn't mean the future is settled and it doesn't mean that every one who becomes a Christian will absolutely see the resurrection. I know you disagree but my main concern is keeping the open future truly open.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Why should I need to explain why?
    You're asking me to explain why I am asking you to explain something. This conversation doesn't have to be so arduous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    What does this have to do with what I was talking about?
    You are asking me a question instead of answering my two questions. I have no idea what you believe. You think you were written into the book at some time, and I want to know when that was. If you don't know, just say so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    I'm asking for Scripture that states the names of all who come into this life are written in the Book of Life. That is the claim for which I want to see verses.
    Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    Psalm 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

    Common sense and the law of parsimony leads me to conclude that one has to start out written in the book of life at conception for Exodus 32:33 and Psalm 69:28 to make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    What part of "...whose names were not written in the book..." are you having a hard time with? It doesn't read, "...whose names were blotted out..."
    They are not written in the book because they were blotted out.

    Psalm 9:5 You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

    Do you want to claim that wasn't true when it was written?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    If you think my argument is against eternal security you're blind.
    No, rather I am uninformed because you will not explain you views or answer my questions, which is what is normally expected in discussions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    And your argument is a failure.
    How is my argument that their names were not written in the book of life because they were blotted out a failure? I've shown that God has a book that He will blot sinners out of (Ex 32:33), and have shown that blotted out names already (Ps 9:5).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    I don't believe anyone is blotted out.
    Why are they added to the book of life, if you believe they are added?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    The Book of Life is that of the Lamb, not the Father.
    Why don't you just explain what you believe completely so we can have this discussion quickly? Explain how many books there are, what the purpose of each is, and how one gets into those books, and how one is blotted out of any books. Stuff like that. I've already explained my view.
    So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

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