User Tag List

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2345678 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 107

Thread: What determines the Omniscience of God

  1. #61
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    9,273
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    11812
    Quote Originally Posted by Doormat View Post
    If libertarian free will is true then Romans 8:7 and Galatians 5:17 are false.
    No, LFW is self-evident. The problem is your wrong interpretation of the verses in context. Calvinists import a deterministic view on Rom. 9-11, etc., but this does not make their interpretation right.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

  2. #62
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    9,273
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    11812
    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    I think everyone here would agree that it is impossible for God to do nonsense.
    Tell that to Raven...
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

  3. #63
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    9,273
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    11812
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Not your everyday occurrence.
    There is a difference between a supernatural miracle (possible for God) and a logical contradiction/absurdity (not possible for God of order).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

  4. #64
    Get your armor ready! Tambora's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    TEXAS
    Posts
    51,835
    Thanks
    162,161
    Thanked 47,422 Times in 29,243 Posts

    Mentioned
    173 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)



    Rep Power
    2148187
    Quote Originally Posted by chickenman View Post

    Omnipresence: God can be anywhere He chooses...unless the place doesn't exist. Then, He would have to create that place if He wanted to be there.

    Omniscience: God can know anything He chooses...unless that thing doesn't exist. Then, He would have to create that thing/event if He wanted/needed to know it.
    Is. 46
    10. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
    11. Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
    My worthless fraction of a penny,
    Randy
    A well spent fraction of a penny!


    When speaking to children, I have heard it explained like this ....

    God can't personally "know" Super Man because Super Man does not exist.
    And God can't be on the planet Krypton because the planet Krypton does not exist.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Tambora For Your Post:

    LoneStar (April 23rd, 2016)

  6. #65
    Over 1000 post club Shasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,141
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 117 Times in 94 Posts

    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    94483
    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Jack View Post
    Okay. Thinking specifically about Omnipresence. Is there anywhere that doesn't need God to be there?
    This is hard to answer. Since Open Theism holds that God exists only within the current moment of universal time we have to assume that this places limitations on His omnipresence as well.

    Despite this some would have us revert back to a Newtonian universe. In the real universe, time, space and matter are inseparably interwoven ever since the Almighty spread out the heavens like a curtain

    Though this has been proven for many years some Open Theists- prefer the Newtonian universe because it more neatly fits suits the idea of God who, to stay in the moment cannot experience time and change any faster than the rest of the universe.

    To answer your question though I would say that the "omnipresence" of a panENthesitic temporal God could be no larger than the dimensions of the temporal spacial universe. Just as He is in pace with universal time experiencing it moment by moment as we do and cannot "know" a future which does not exist so from the standpoint of physics His presence can extend no further than the universe itself.

    Even as He is omniscient (of all things knowable) so it could be said that He is omnipresent (in every place it is possible to be). Since nothing exists beyond the material-spatial universe it is as much of a fantasy as tomorrow. This means that God's presence can extend no further than the dimensions of the physical universe.

    Now the universe is big (relative to us, anyway). How old it is depends on whether you hold to YEC or OEC. Either way, whether He just put the stars out there or sent them out there faster than light or by some other means the evidence shows that the edge of the visible universe is about 28 billion light years in diameter and growing. At any rate we know it is finite and if we could determine it we could put some dimensions on it.

    All that can be said is that just as omniscience means God knows everything that is unknowable so He is omnipresent at everywhere "that He CAN be" "Omni" is supposed to be an all inclusive word

  7. #66
    Over 1000 post club Shasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,141
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 117 Times in 94 Posts

    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    94483
    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    A well spent fraction of a penny!


    When speaking to children, I have heard it explained like this ....

    God can't personally "know" Super Man because Super Man does not exist.
    And God can't be on the planet Krypton because the planet Krypton does not exist.
    I understand your point. In the universe as God designed it many things simply do not exist. Spider man....well I wish he existed although since I don't live in New York he Daredevil and the Fantastic Four would not be of much help to me. On the other hand Satan is pretty much on par with Galactus and I would rather he not be around.

    Seriously though, I think you are confusing "potentiality" with "actuality." God does not only know all actualities but all potentialities otherwise He could not have been able to create this crazy Cosmos we live in.

    Stan Lee can "create" and "imaginatively" construct characters fully seeing them in his mind. If he were God he might very well make them real and independent of him and maybe even out of a nobler substance than mud. That is the difference (Hebrews 11:1-3).

    I was a teacher (k-5). To learn real art they have to see more than the stereotyped creations of their peers but something inside and outside. Actually I am excited about what God is going to do next

  8. #67
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Anderson, IN
    Posts
    20,725
    Thanks
    1,182
    Thanked 13,385 Times in 10,249 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147886
    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    A well spent fraction of a penny!


    When speaking to children, I have heard it explained like this ....

    God can't personally "know" Super Man because Super Man does not exist.
    And God can't be on the planet Krypton because the planet Krypton does not exist.
    Am I going to have to teach a lesson on how to spell superhero names on here?



  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Lighthouse For Your Post:

    LoneStar (April 23rd, 2016)

  10. #68
    Get your armor ready! Tambora's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    TEXAS
    Posts
    51,835
    Thanks
    162,161
    Thanked 47,422 Times in 29,243 Posts

    Mentioned
    173 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)



    Rep Power
    2148187
    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Am I going to have to teach a lesson on how to spell superhero names on here?

    If your class has cookies, I'll be there!

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Tambora For Your Post:

    LoneStar (April 23rd, 2016)

  12. #69
    Does Whatever A Light-House Can Lighthouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Anderson, IN
    Posts
    20,725
    Thanks
    1,182
    Thanked 13,385 Times in 10,249 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147886
    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    If your class has cookies, I'll be there!


  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Lighthouse For Your Post:

    LoneStar (April 23rd, 2016)

  14. #70
    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,363
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 190 Times in 122 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    454963
    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    This is hard to answer.
    Only for you because you have a faulty worldview. I already gave an answer and it wasn't difficult at all.

    Since Open Theism holds that God exists only within the current moment of universal time we have to assume that this places limitations on His omnipresence as well.
    No we don't. What we need to assume is that you are an illogical person. Because you seem unaware that the verb 'exists' is a present tense verb. So it of course doesn't make any sense to say that God 'exists' at any time other time than the present.

    Despite this some would have us revert back to a Newtonian universe.
    Your references? Because I suspect you are just inventing this.

    In the real universe, time, space and matter are inseparably interwoven ever since the Almighty spread out the heavens like a curtain
    Well it depends on what you mean by 'universe', doesn't it? If you believe that God is real, as I hope, then you cannot possibly deny that God is a part of the real universe. So you would say that God spread himself out like a curtain then? Alternatively, if you are actually referring to the physical universe then you are confusing the two because physical is not the only thing that is real. Issues of space, time and relativity apply to the physical world. Again, you obviously are missing quite a few tricks here. You have some very basic misconceptions of what OVers believe let alone your incomplete view of what 'real universe' means.

    Though this has been proven for many years some Open Theists- prefer the Newtonian universe because it more neatly fits suits the idea of God who, to stay in the moment cannot experience time and change any faster than the rest of the universe.
    Again, you have no references for this. You are just inventing it because you would like to tar OVers with this brush. You are probably distorting what some OVers have said and I think I know where you got this from but unless you can provide references then it can only be assumed that you invented it.

    To answer your question though I would say that the "omnipresence" of a panENthesitic temporal God could be no larger than the dimensions of the temporal spacial universe. Just as He is in pace with universal time experiencing it moment by moment as we do and cannot "know" a future which does not exist so from the standpoint of physics His presence can extend no further than the universe itself.
    And what would this have to do with open theism?

    And besides, if God is real and he is therefore a part of all that is real (the real universe) then you wouldn't expect him to be bigger than the universe would you? Because that would mean that God would have to be bigger than himself! Surely you must agree with this?

    Even as He is omniscient (of all things knowable) so it could be said that He is omnipresent (in every place it is possible to be). Since nothing exists beyond the material-spatial universe it is as much of a fantasy as tomorrow. This means that God's presence can extend no further than the dimensions of the physical universe.
    Again, you are accusing OVers of believing in a God who is purely physical. I am fairly sure no OVer would say that. Unless you can provide references, the only conclusion is that you are inventing this. OVers believe, in common with what all believers should believe, that God is spirit. Get a grip. Omnipresence is a concept in reference to physical space, which makes no sense in terms of a God who is not physical.

    Now the universe is big (relative to us, anyway).
    Really?

    How old it is depends on whether you hold to YEC or OEC. Either way, whether He just put the stars out there or sent them out there faster than light or by some other means the evidence shows that the edge of the visible universe is about 28 billion light years in diameter and growing. At any rate we know it is finite and if we could determine it we could put some dimensions on it.
    Again, what on earth has this got to do with open theism? And did you not learn that the whole universe is a lot bigger than what is visible to us? You have a very poor concept of isomorphic expansion (for example, if you understood it, you would not talk about measuring it), which probably parallels your very poor understanding of open theism.

    All that can be said is that
    ... you have invented what you would like to think open theists believe. I suggest that you study open theism a little more and perhaps look more closely at some of my posts and if you have questions, I would be happy to answer them.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

  15. #71
    Over 1000 post club Shasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,141
    Thanks
    30
    Thanked 117 Times in 94 Posts

    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    94483
    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Reign View Post
    Only for you because you have a faulty worldview. I already gave an answer and it wasn't difficult at all.

    No we don't. What we need to assume is that you are an illogical person. Because you seem unaware that the verb 'exists' is a present tense verb. So it of course doesn't make any sense to say that God 'exists' at any time other time than the present.

    I know. Exists as a verb of being can also be conjugated in the past or future tense but I was using it to introduce a hypothetical statement so nothing much can be made of it. It would have been clearer if I had said "If God existed"

    Your references? Because I suspect you are just inventing this.

    Well it depends on what you mean by 'universe', doesn't it? If you believe that God is real, as I hope, then you cannot possibly deny that God is a part of the real universe. So you would say that God spread himself out like a curtain then? Alternatively, if you are actually referring to the physical universe then you are confusing the two because physical is not the only thing that is real. Issues of space, time and relativity apply to the physical world. Again, you obviously are missing quite a few tricks here. You have some very basic misconceptions of what OVers believe let alone your incomplete view of what 'real universe' means.

    A pantheist might say God stretching out the universe is same as saying God is stretching out Himself but I am not a pantheist. Apparently there is a miscommunication about what we mean when we say God is a "part" because to me it seems you ARE integrating God with the natural physical system. How else do you arrive at a definition of "time" that would allow us to share our experience with Him?
    Again, you have no references for this. You are just inventing it because you would like to tar OVers with this brush. You are probably distorting what some OVers have said and I think I know where you got this from but unless you can provide references then it can only be assumed that you invented it.

    And what would this have to do with open theism?

    And besides, if God is real and he is therefore a part of all that is real (the real universe) then you wouldn't expect him to be bigger than the universe would you? Because that would mean that God would have to be bigger than himself! Surely you must agree with this?

    Again it all depends on what you mean by "part" A man in a play can be said to be part of the play. Is the man an inextricable part so much a part that he cannot go home after a scene is played out? That is the question.

    Again, you are accusing OVers of believing in a God who is purely physical. I am fairly sure no OVer would say that. Unless you can provide references, the only conclusion is that you are inventing this. OVers believe, in common with what all believers should believe, that God is spirit. Get a grip. Omnipresence is a concept in reference to physical space, which makes no sense in terms of a God who is not physical.

    Really?

    If God were spiritual in such a way as to make Him non-spatial you would be right. If He is linked to time which is a part of the temporal universe then His presence cannot extend past the outer boundaries of space.

    Again, what on earth has this got to do with open theism? And did you not learn that the whole universe is a lot bigger than what is visible to us? You have a very poor concept of isomorphic expansion (for example, if you understood it, you would not talk about measuring it), which probably parallels your very poor understanding of open theism.

    How big the universe, in what manner it expands is irrelevant. The point is there is a boundary "beyond" which is non-existence because it does not exist God cannot be there. I am not the only one who speaks about the dimensions of the universe. Most everyone does, physicists included.
    ... you have invented what you would like to think open theists believe. I suggest that you study open theism a little more and perhaps look more closely at some of my posts and if you have questions, I would be happy to answer them.
    I have been testing what I see as problematic issues. If you do not want to talk about then so be it. You are very rude anyway.

  16. #72
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    20,859
    Thanks
    3,851
    Thanked 8,328 Times in 4,843 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    49 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147837
    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    If your class has cookies, I'll be there!
    I have that disabled.


    And, to stab at the OP, I believe God's omniscience is established, for all practical intents and purposes, by scripture. I'm not sure about using determines in that context.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  17. #73
    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Alabama and Florida
    Posts
    10,002
    Thanks
    2,597
    Thanked 7,213 Times in 4,976 Posts

    Blog Entries
    8
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)



    Rep Power
    2147732
    Quote Originally Posted by godrulz View Post
    Omniscience is limited by what is knowable. The future is inherently not knowable in the same way the past and present are. God does have foreknowledge, but it is not exhaustive like His knowledge of the past/present is.
    This is not the best way to argue against theological fatalism, which I assume. One may assert my thoughts may have existed in the mind if God, yet they, for me, cannot be the same.

    Do you follow me? I am thinking this from your response now and that is different than an eternal thought in the mind of God. They are not to be confused; my thoughts are my own, regardless.
    So, what?

    believe it!

  18. #74
    LIFETIME MEMBER Desert Reign's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,363
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 190 Times in 122 Posts

    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    454963
    Shasta,
    You seem to have placed everything in quotes, which makes it quite difficult to reformat.

    I'll try to make do but perhaps later you could edit accordingly.

    You said

    I know. Exists as a verb of being can also be conjugated in the past or future tense but I was using it to introduce a hypothetical statement so nothing much can be made of it. It would have been clearer if I had said "If God existed"
    OK, so let's see where this leads.

    "If God existed in this current moment in universal time, God only exists in this current moment of universal time."

    Is that what you are trying to say? I still fail to see how this places any kind of limitation on God, let alone "limitations on His omnipresence as well". By the time you have finished pronouncing your sentence, we are already at another "current moment of universal time" and I still haven't made any sense of what you are saying.

    So if in another 75 moments of 'universal time' later (whatever moments of 'universal' time might mean... do you know?) you look and lo and behold there is an amazing coincidence: God is there as as well, completely unexpected! And of course no one in their right mind would possibly draw the inference that God was actually a living being...

    A pantheist might say God stretching out the universe is same as saying God is stretching out Himself but I am not a pantheist. Apparently there is a miscommunication about what we mean when we say God is a "part" because to me it seems you ARE integrating God with the natural physical system. How else do you arrive at a definition of "time" that would allow us to share our experience with Him?
    I'm not sure what being a pantheist has to do with this but I assure you that I believe that Jesus Christ is the perfect representation of God himself and I don't see how anyone who claims the Bible to be inspired by God can believe otherwise. Can I ask you if you believe the same and if so, how can you also suggest that God is not part of the 'physical system'? If your concern is his omnipresence then how can you deny that he is everywhere in the physical system, even he, Jesus, who upholds the universe by the word of his power?

    However, the universe is more than physical things. Surely you accept this, otherwise you would probably be an atheist?

    As to a definition of time - time is a construct, it is a convenient term for use in human affairs but it has no actual direct physical referent. In other words, it can't be measured because it isn't something that exists physically to be measured. You can't catch it and analyse it, you can't put a sample of it in a bottle or watch it passing by or travel along it in a time machine. And anyone who thinks that Einstein showed that it was a physical property of the universe has completely misunderstood him.

    Again it all depends on what you mean by "part" A man in a play can be said to be part of the play. Is the man an inextricable part so much a part that he cannot go home after a scene is played out? That is the question.
    I really don't understand your point. It again makes no sense at all. I firstly said
    If you believe that God is real, as I hope, then you cannot possibly deny that God is a part of the real universe.
    The universe is everything that is real. God is real. Therefore God is a part of the real universe. This is undeniable, what is so difficult about it?

    If God were spiritual in such a way as to make Him non-spatial you would be right. If He is linked to time which is a part of the temporal universe then His presence cannot extend past the outer boundaries of space.
    Look, is love real? Do I hear a 'yes'? So where is this love situated then? I think you are hung up on this physical vs spiritual issue. The universe is much more than the physical.
    Also you display a basic misunderstanding of the so called expansion of the universe, which isn't expanding at all. Because the universe is ALL (got it?) that exists. It can never be more than that and never be less than that. This is basic logic. You possibly imagine the big bang as a pea that suddenly turns into a football. I assure you that it is not like that at all. There isn't a vast infinite array of empty space into which the ever expanding football expands. The universe has no borders and cannot be measured. A rhetorical question for you: what do you measure EVERYTHING with?

    How big the universe, in what manner it expands is irrelevant. The point is there is a boundary "beyond" which is non-existence because it does not exist God cannot be there. I am not the only one who speaks about the dimensions of the universe. Most everyone does, physicists included.
    No, it is very relevant. If you think that there is a boundary to the universe within which you think God (according to your view of open theism) is limited, then it is very relevant. Because you have completely misunderstood the concept of isomorphic expansion. Please cite me a reputable physicist who can confirm that the universe can be measured. I am confident that when you go and look carefully at your sources you will find you have misunderstood them.
    Last edited by Desert Reign; February 22nd, 2013 at 10:13 PM.
    Total Misanthropy.
    Uncertain salvation.
    Luck of the draw.
    Irresistible damnation.
    Persecution of the saints.

    Time is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.
    (The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

    RevTestament: It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
    Dialogos: Calvin, as a sinner, probably got some things wrong.
    Brandplucked: I'm shocked that other people disagree with me.

  19. #75
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    9,273
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    11812
    Quote Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
    This is not the best way to argue against theological fatalism, which I assume. One may assert my thoughts may have existed in the mind if God, yet they, for me, cannot be the same.

    Do you follow me? I am thinking this from your response now and that is different than an eternal thought in the mind of God. They are not to be confused; my thoughts are my own, regardless.
    Your thoughts and choices cannot logically precede your existence by trillions of years and be exhaustively foreknown apart from sheer determinism. They would then not be your thoughts, but something back of you causing things. You would be a robotic puppet, not a being created in the image of God.
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us