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Thread: Mishaps were the theme of Bob's latest round...

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Mishaps were the theme of Bob's latest round...

    Mishaps were the theme of Bob's latest round...

    (I have created this thread with the hopes of avoiding all the confusion in the other thread)

    First, he stated: "So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty."

    I have shared with Bob the facts. Women in these areas (prior to coming to Christ or even after coming to Christ) do not always readily reassert their modesty.

    Will you now acknowledge, in light of the facts, that this statement (that you have made) is not always true: "So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty." Will you make the clarification, Bob?

    Bob, do you recognize that "readily" was a bad choice for a word to describe what happens when missionaries arrive in a village? The facts tell us otherwise. So your statement is misleading and untrue.

    These missionaries you have referred to---have they lived in Africa for any extended period of time? What nations did they visit? Have they visited many tribes (which ones) and many villages?

    Bob also stated in his most recent debate with Zakath:

    We conceal reproduction and the expulsion of waste (which even prostitutes and pornographers do in their private lives), and then we also cover our nakedness with clothes, and reside in private domiciles.

    Bob, as I mentioned earlier to you, I have a adopted brother who is Nigerian (he's a dedicated pastor). Prior to us meeting him (in his teen years) he lived in the worse of conditions (as do many of the Africans). He didn't have a bathroom. He used the streets to expel his waste. In fact, it is common, for many of the Africans not to even worry about concealing their explusion of waste. Why worry about concealing when you can't. They simply use the streets as their bathroom. Conditions are that bad in many areas. I, my traveling companions, & my family have seen this in Benin, Nigeria, Ghana, and Togo. I have witnessed Africans simply (men & women & children) stopping on the side of the road and expelling their waste with no concern for concealment.

    This is not an African phenomena either. I have seen this southeast Asia and in parts of the Carribean (I just got back from a trip to Haiti). Perhaps, you should have prefaced this portion with the fact that you are speaking of the Western World. Bob, I would encourage you to exhibit some caution in throwing these generalizations around. Ok?

    Bob also stated: Since animals do not have spirits, they have no context from which to be embarrassed about relieving themselves or reproduction, and readily do both in public. A male horse pulling a carriage of tourists in Denver will defecate in front of his favorite mare and the rest of the world, while a human being would die a thousand deaths emotionally before doing likewise.

    As I have proven this (see the bold) is simply untrue, Bob. People in the third world defecate in front of (even complete strangers) someone without any shame. This is their life.

    Bob also stated: Even nudists use private restrooms and claim to conceal their sexual behavior from relatives and other onlookers.

    Again this is simply untrue. I remember driving with some friends down a street outside Kingston, Jamaica back in 1989, and seeing a a totally nude man & woman having sex on the side of the road with no concern of onlookers.

    Bob, as a pastor, you have an obligation in a formal debate to make sure you're not misleading people into believing something that is not entirely true, correct? So, perhaps you can address these concerns and make the necessary corrections. Thank you.
    Last edited by Freak; July 24th, 2003 at 09:06 AM.
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    Re: Mishaps were the theme of Bob's latest round...

    Originally posted by Freak
    I have created this thread with the hopes of avoiding all the confusion in the other thread
    You failed.
    Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen. Ephesians 3:20-21

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    Re: Re: Mishaps were the theme of Bob's latest round...

    Originally posted by RogerB
    You failed.
    Perhaps you can help Bob then.
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    Roger, do you care about the truth or not?
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    Re: Re: Re: Mishaps were the theme of Bob's latest round...

    Originally posted by Freak
    Perhaps you can help Bob then.
    Your anecdotes do not prove you are right. One couple having sex on the side of the road in Jamaica does not mean that the majority of the people in the world would behave this way. The same thing goes for the rest of your silly, waste of time rants.
    Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen. Ephesians 3:20-21

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Mishaps were the theme of Bob's latest round...

    Originally posted by RogerB
    Your anecdotes do not prove you are right. One couple having sex on the side of the road in Jamaica does not mean that the majority of the people in the world would behave this way. The same thing goes for the rest of your silly, waste of time rants.
    His assertions need to be prefaced then with this:

    These examples are sometimes true but not entirely true for there are some exceptions. Agree?
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    Perhaps Bob should have chosen another means to prove God----Bob, was doing a good job in focusing on God's creation but when he got off into all this other stuff--he made a bad decision. For these examples, that he used, are not entirely true.
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mishaps were the theme of Bob's latest round...

    Originally posted by Freak
    His assertions need to be prefaced then with this:

    These examples are sometimes true but not entirely true for there are some exceptions. Agree?
    I think the majority of the people here already know this to be the case.

    So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty.
    Notice that it doesn't say ALL WOMEN?

    We conceal reproduction and the expulsion of waste (which even prostitutes and pornographers do in their private lives), and then we also cover our nakedness with clothes, and
    reside in private domiciles.
    Notice that it doesn't say WE ALWAYS. I conceal my reproduction and waste expulsion. Do you? Does Bob? Does Skeptic? Does BillyBob? Zakath? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
    Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen. Ephesians 3:20-21

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mishaps were the theme of Bob's latest round...

    Originally posted by RogerB
    I think the majority of the people here already know this to be the case.
    In all fairness, Bob needs to make it clear that his statements concerning these matters are not entirely true.
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    For we must remember he built is latest case for God upon these ideas. What a shaky foundation he has....
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    Bob, I think this is now a pride issue with you. As a follower of Christ you have an obligation to be humble and to recognize when you have made some mistakes. I know I have made many and have publically acknowledged them. Will you do the same?
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    Nudity and primitive human society

    Apart from the quarel between Bob E and Freak, who disagree on the issue of public nudity and modesty, the subject on hand is of course an interesting one.

    What is interesting of course is that our current perceptions of what is moral and modesty, have not always been there, but have been formed through our societal and cultural development.

    We know however that humans have come from the wilderniss, and were derived from ancestors who were primates, and that part of human history has developed in which humans were not dressed, and in which marriage as a stable bond between the two sexes also did not exist.

    Initially mankind lived like the animals, depending totally on the products of nature. We did not protect our skin against the influence of the climate, but instead we had still our skin covered with enough hair to keep the cold out.

    It is assumed that initially mankind had it's habitat in warmer climates, and only gradually inhabited the colder climate zones, in which covering the body with animal skins were necessary for survival. The genes that control the growing of hair on our body have changed in the course of time, and caused that most of our skin is no longer covered with thick hair (althoug all of our skin, except for the hand palms, feet and areas like lips, are still covered with small hairs) to protect against the climate. Current day humans only have hair on certain parts of the body, which are foremost the head, the genital zone and the armpit (and for males the bear and moustache).
    There are some people who happened to have those genes turned back on, and which have hair growing on other places as well, like all of the face (and not just the beard or moustache zone), which indicates that we have come from a species that used to have their total skin covered with hair.

    It is arguable that humans were dressing themselves, not out of 'modesty' or shame for their nudity, but for practical purposes, which were to cover and protect the vital body parts, and to protect for weather conditions, when the human skin became less hairy.
    The genital parts were presumably the first and foremost parts that were covered, and which supposedly was caused because those skin parts are the most sensitive, and could be hurt during the activities of hunting and gathering.

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    Originally posted by Freak
    Bob, I think this is now a pride issue with you. As a follower of Christ you have an obligation to be humble and to recognize when you have made some mistakes. I know I have made many and have publically acknowledged them. Will you do the same?
    Wow Freak! You got him there!

    Bob made a general statement, not an absolute statement. Maybe you saw a few cases that were different than what Bob explained. So what? I think we can all understand what Bob meant if maybe some of us would quit "majoring in the minors".

    Why are you so obsessed with this one statement that Bob made? It seems rather silly.

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    Shimei:

    Perhaps because the way in which Bob E handles and manipulates "truth" in this particular case, forms a pattern?

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mishaps were the theme of Bob's latest round...

    Originally posted by RogerB
    Notice that it doesn't say ALL WOMEN?
    Bob E makes a general statement, in which in his mind, this women are "conditioned" in going topless by tribesmen, but when the "good missionaires" comes by "readiliy admit their modesty".

    As Freak exposed, this is not observed behaviour (not the "conditioning" part nor the "readmitting modesty" part) but is just a made up story, that Bob E believes himself in, and therefore adapts and prortrays as "truths".

    The other and more obvious truth though, that going around clothed and conforming to all kind of other social rules, is a form of conditiong and pre-conditioning that happens to us since childhood, he is not willing to see and to explore it's origin.

    Notice that it doesn't say WE ALWAYS. I conceal my reproduction and waste expulsion. Do you? Does Bob? Does Skeptic? Does BillyBob? Zakath? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
    Have you ever noticed that the genital parts are the most sensitive parts of the human body, and that those parts for men are partly hanging out of the human body, and for women contain a body opening, which would cause, when not covered when going in the wilderness, serious damage?

    So, why do you think those body parts were the first things in human history, mankind covered and packed?

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